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Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

arstechnica.com

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Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#111

Post by notatoad »

jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

this seems like the sort of thing that would be better measured with actual numbers, not just anecdotes from people on the internet.

the NHTSA is a pretty cautious organization, and they like numbers. if they've studied it and found that automatic braking will prevent 24000 crashes and 360 deaths per year, i'd be inclined to believe them. having the car brake for me when i'm not expecting it sounds kind of scary to me too, but i'd rather experience that than let 360 people die every year.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#112

Post by hedora »

ceejayoz wrote: post #95
dabluecaboose wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exclusively a "gearhead" opinion to not want a system in your car that can violently take control away from you unexpectedly Statistics are meaningless to the individual. Sure, emergency braking might be safer across the board, but that means little compared to an individual who already drives safely without it.

> Statistics are meaningless to the individual. This is just blatantly untrue. > means little compared to an individual who already drives safely without it Until emergency breaking stops a bad driver from T-boning you in an intersection as they run a red light. “I’ll just drive safely” was the argument against seatbelts, airbags, and antilock brakes. Motorcycle helmets, too.

Can current emergency braking systems realistically stop a t-bone accident?

Sure, if it was equivalent in capability to a class 5 self driving car, it would see the light was red, and notice the partially occluded other car, then stop in time.

But, with just a front facing radar? I don’t see how it would be able to do much. It would only have a few feet to stop.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#113

Post by JohnFen »

notatoad wrote: post #111
jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

this seems like the sort of thing that would be better measured with actual numbers, not just anecdotes from people on the internet. the NHTSA is a pretty cautious organization, and they like numbers. if they've studied it and found that automatic braking will prevent 24000 crashes and 360 deaths per year, i'd be inclined to believe them. having the car brake for me when i'm not expecting it sounds kind of scary to m…

I agree.

I also agree with this:

> If the government wants to immediately improve car safety they should outlaw touchscreens instead.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#114

Post by notatoad »

JohnFen wrote: post #113
notatoad wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this seems like the sort of thing that would be better measured with actual numbers, not just anecdotes from people on the internet. the NHTSA is a pretty cautious organization, and they like numbers. if they've studied it and found that automatic braking will prevent 24000 crashes and 360 deaths per year, i'd be inclined to believe them. having the car brake for me when i'm not expecting it sounds kind of scary to m…

I agree. I also agree with this: > If the government wants to immediately improve car safety they should outlaw touchscreens instead.

i also hate touchscreens in cars, but that's not an either/or situation with AEB

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#115

Post by hnick »

ics wrote: post #50
jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

I wrote up a long comment that got scrapped by my focus filter but I feel the need to voice strong agreement here. I have a recent Mazda which in almost all ways is my perfect car except for the newfangled safety features all new cars seem to have. Lane correction and emergency braking, even set to the lowest sensitivity levels, are bad to outright dangerous in city (and some country) driving. In NYC it's common to h…

My new car has lane keep assist and AEB and I haven't had these issues. From what I hear it's very much to do with a maker's implementation (mine is Hyundai, who for various reasons seems to have a bad reputation in North America but a good one in Australia). For the lane keep assist I feel a nudge but it's extremely easy to overcome just through a normal grip on the wheel - if I don't budge it won't move. It's been an issue near construction sometimes but also some wider merges where 2 lanes become one (the markings in Canberra seem to confuse it, but not Sydney) so it does depends a lot on road conditions, but as I say it's annoying at most and I wouldn't call it dangerous in my car and it helps more than it hinders.

For AEB, the same system is used in the adaptive cruise control and it's been near perfect. One funny thing was that it just alarmed and fully died in outback Victoria - apparently it is coded to do this as a fail-safe if it hasn't detected a car for a long time due to the system potentially not working. The service centre employee said Hyundai are working on a patch to extend the timeout since it's a little low for country Australian roads (approximately an hour at the moment I think).

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#116

Post by nucleardog »

randomfinn wrote: post #78
mkmk wrote: post #19

This feature once saved me from what would have otherwise been a very nasty crash, many years ago. I was driving too fast in a borrowed car over a small hill and hadn't realized that traffic had stopped just out of my sight until too late. I heard a beep and saw flashing on my dash and I started braking but a moment later the emergency braking system kicked in, braking much harder than I would have been able to. The…

> braking much harder than I would have been able to Any idea why you weren't able to apply full brakes? I remember reading that most people don't in an emergency and that's why the emergency brake boost was created, but haven't seen the reason for it.

This is just one of those suspicions I have had for many years and done nothing to verify, but I think part of it is probably that everyone sits too far back from the pedals.

I have my seat adjusted so that with my back and butt against the back of my seat (so I’m braced against something) I can push the brake pedal and have it hit the bottom of travel just a bit before my knee locks without having to take my heel off the floor and try and press it with my toes or something.

My wife is almost a half foot shorter than me and when I drive her car I don’t need to adjust the seat at all. I find a similar situation driving most people’s cars.

So, y’know, I think people literally can’t apply the brakes all the way… because they can’t reach the bottom of the pedal travel.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#117

Post by hedora »

There is a lot of concern about incorrect actuations in this thread.

One way to address this is to dictate that the car AEB status prior to each accident was made known to everyone involved, and to hold the manufacturer directly liable whenever AEB contributed to a collision.

After making that change, they could circulate the draft bill, and let the car manufacturer lobbyists kill it.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#118

Post by LeifCarrotson »

notatoad wrote: post #111
jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

this seems like the sort of thing that would be better measured with actual numbers, not just anecdotes from people on the internet. the NHTSA is a pretty cautious organization, and they like numbers. if they've studied it and found that automatic braking will prevent 24000 crashes and 360 deaths per year, i'd be inclined to believe them. having the car brake for me when i'm not expecting it sounds kind of scary to m…

The problem with numbers is that they don't tell the whole story.

I can easily imagine a scenario where it might prevent 25000 crashes a year that are caused because 5% of drivers are staring at their phones, have a high chance of rear-ending someone, and this software makes that far less likely. While also containing bugs causing 1000 crashes a year for the larger number of non-distracted drivers, resulting in a net change of 24000. This would mean that adding the software would be better for society, while making the majority of drivers slightly more likely to crash into someone.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#119

Post by hnick »

nradov wrote: post #35
jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

There appear to be major variations between manufacturers. I've driven many miles on a wide variety of roads in a Subaru and haven't experienced any false positive automatic braking incidents. However, the system does automatically disable itself (and warns the driver accordingly) in heavy precipitation so there is still significant room for improvement.

When shopping for a new car Subaru was very proud of its dual-camera setup, I don't know if it's actually better but they make a lot of noise about it. Maybe there is some truth to it.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#120

Post by ceejayoz »

hedora wrote: post #112
ceejayoz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistics are meaningless to the individual. This is just blatantly untrue. > means little compared to an individual who already drives safely without it Until emergency breaking stops a bad driver from T-boning you in an intersection as they run a red light. “I’ll just drive safely” was the argument against seatbelts, airbags, and antilock brakes. Motorcycle helmets, too.

Can current emergency braking systems realistically stop a t-bone accident? Sure, if it was equivalent in capability to a class 5 self driving car, it would see the light was red, and notice the partially occluded other car, then stop in time. But, with just a front facing radar? I don’t see how it would be able to do much. It would only have a few feet to stop.

Even a reduction in speed helps - 10 mph can make a significant difference in lethality - and sub in being rear-ended if you prefer.

The point is even a perfect driver may benefit from safety devices in the hands of other drivers they encounter.

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