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Own-goal football (2022)

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Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#141

Post by shusaku »

pubby wrote: post #62
gfunk911 wrote: post #33

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime. The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit qui…

This one boggles my mind because broadcasters don't want games to go into overtime. A 3-point system where overtime win/losses are split 2/1 emphasizes winning in the final few minutes, which is exciting to both viewers and businessmen. Maybe one day they'll switch.

The NHL’s overtime is pretty efficient though. There’s a short commercial break, then 5 minutes of 3-3 which is exciting and has a high probability of goals. Then a well paced shootout if it is still tied. So perhaps broadcasters are ok with a little extra time if they keep a large audience.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#142

Post by LanceH »

smcl wrote: post #81
LanceH wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.

GP mentioned this though: > not even in the little kids leagues It might just be something that is very common somewhere or at some level (dunno where), but it's pretty alien to the pair of us and would be for most/all of continental Europe at the very least.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen it since the 90's -- all in the US. But I haven't played weekend tournaments since then.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#143

Post by manquer »

jfengel wrote: post #66
bowmessage wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that obvious? Why would a team want to allow their opposition to score any points at all?

Because it could be you who gets the point. If it's tied near the end of regulation, your expectation value is 1. But if you and the other team wait it out and let it go into overtime, your expectation value is 1.5.

If teams don't play to win, and collaborate instead of compete every sport will be boring while maximizing "points" but loosing viewership.

This is why all teams don't always play for a draw and only go for victory only on minimum risk. This kind of cooperative behavior is awfully close to match fixing and likely to get banned / fined by a competent league (one that wants to make money).

Soccer has its share of embarrassments like the CONCAF game in the article or the disgrace of Gijón in 1980, usually this happened in national games (not much money), modern clubs play to win like what FC Mainz did with Dortmund on Saturday, because playing to win is why crowds watch and that what makes money.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#144

Post by defrost »

hgsgm wrote: post #98
kodt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end of American Football games is so frustrating because of this, with a team just constantly taking a knee to run out the clock. It makes the last 2 minutes of the game useless. Constant fouls in Basketball hoping the opposing team will miss a free throw is another frustrating tactic that drags the last 2 minutes on forever, in what is usually a forgone conclusion anyway.

You are allowed to go to the kitchen after 58minutes.

Although sometimes it's wise come back 50 minutes later for the very last minutes of a tight Grand Final.

https://youtu.be/_qLF1qFn6u8?t=6477

( WTF is AFL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_SqfNNfhmM )

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#145

Post by jnsie »

permo-w wrote: post #135
jnsie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it would be completely broken, per se, but as a spectacle I think it would be ruined...Obviously not a big concern for 7-a-side, 5-a-side, etc.

why do you think the spectacle would be ruined?

Taking things to the extreme...because you'd effectively have a group of players in one box, a group of players in another box and not a whole lot in between. You'd remove the need for midfielders almost entirely and The game would become much more about who can hoof the ball furthest downfield and much less about strategy, which is what makes football beautiful. I guess the tldr version is the game would be simplified so much as to remove any nuance, thereby removing most of what makes it beautiful to watch.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#146

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #52
munificent wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The meta-game of game design: how do you design a game whose mechanics lead to incentives that align with your intentions is a fascinating area. It also has deep connections to policy design in politics. In the political arena, it gets so much more complex because you have disagreement on intentions and people deliberately obfuscating their intentions. So you've got people arguing over legislation who are trying to a…

For games at least, attempting to be highly prescriptive in the rules risks strangling the game. Basketball was designed to be played without dribbling. By the time players started single-handed dribbling it was pretty clear what's the more interesting, exciting game to watch and play

It also changes the nature of the game.

If you can move with the ball, then a single highly competent player becomes very valuable. A superstar.

If you are forced to work as a team since you can’t move, the team has to setup formations to get the ball across the court.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#147

Post by stevage »

defrost wrote: post #144
hgsgm wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are allowed to go to the kitchen after 58minutes.

Although sometimes it's wise come back 50 minutes later for the very last minutes of a tight Grand Final. https://youtu.be/_qLF1qFn6u8?t=6477 ( WTF is AFL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_SqfNNfhmM )

Wow that's a pretty heroic final mark!

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#148

Post by kodt »

shusaku wrote: post #134
kodt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end of American Football games is so frustrating because of this, with a team just constantly taking a knee to run out the clock. It makes the last 2 minutes of the game useless. Constant fouls in Basketball hoping the opposing team will miss a free throw is another frustrating tactic that drags the last 2 minutes on forever, in what is usually a forgone conclusion anyway.

On the contrary, the clock management makes American football games more exciting, because you know if your team can just get one first down you will win. The tension heightens because you see the finish line. But it does lead to unsatisfying situations where a person layer intentionally goes down instead of scoring because he doesn’t want to give the ball back to the other team. I agree with your basketball complain…

I don't think anyone rooting for the losing team in that situation likes it though. They want them to go for a play and hope for the miracle turnover.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#149

Post by Pet_Ant »

manquer wrote: post #140
NikolaNovak wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a period in world rally championship where it was beneficial not to win day one or day two of a 3 day championship. This resulted in hilarious but rational situations where top racers would race like maniacs for the entire day, then 200meters before the end of the a last stage of the day slow down and crawl for say 12 seconds, so they would come a second behind somebody else and not lead the pack the next d…

why drive like maniacs only to slow down at the end ? might as well drive slower throughout the stage ? and be most aggressive on day 3 ?

Because you wanted second place, not third or latter? Maybe because you didn’t want the track too chewed up?

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#150

Post by pcchristie »

furyofantares wrote: post #10
divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

A good example of that is Australian Rules Football. Egregious fouls or non-play acts like time wasting or violence used to get a 15m penalty (you just get to walk 15m down the ground unimpeded). But one coach realised that the time gained in awarding and jogging the 15m allowed his team to set up defence which was a worthwhile tradeoff and instructed his players to regularly refuse to give the ball back and concede these penalties when it was necessary.

The league changed it to 50m to even it up. Funnily enough, in modern times the other rules have tightened so much that 50m is way overkill for most things it's awarded for.

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