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Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

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Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#141

Post by stickfigure »

vkou wrote: post #138
stickfigure wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mustache-twirling cartoon villain implied by the narrative. People aren't that simple, not even tech managers.

It's not mustache-twirling villainy, it's just having a fragile ego and being pissed at a dig at you, which is common across all sorts of people, managers included.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Blizzard used it in an ad campaign "before, during, and after I was separated". It's not like the text was secret.

A simpler explanation is that an aggrieved party is not giving us the whole story. General advice: Be wary taking sides in nasty breakups even if (especially if) you want to like/dislike one or the other.

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#142

Post by vkou »

stickfigure wrote: post #141
vkou wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not mustache-twirling villainy, it's just having a fragile ego and being pissed at a dig at you, which is common across all sorts of people, managers included.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Blizzard used it in an ad campaign "before, during, and after I was separated". It's not like the text was secret. A simpler explanation is that an aggrieved party is not giving us the whole story. General advice: Be wary taking sides in nasty breakups even if ( especially if ) you want to like/dislike one or the other.

It's good advice when one person is pissed at another person, it's less good advice when that line of disgruntled people stretches down the block and around the corner.

It's naive to assume good intentions when one party has a well-documented, multi-sourced history of behaving poorly.

And a very simple explanation is that the people who got pissed at it weren't the people who worked on the ads, and even if they ultimately gave high-level approval for them, didn't notice the minutia at the time. Maybe the parts of it they had issue with weren't the parts used in the ad. "Back to the office" and "Another Yacht" could have been the trigger words, and they don't appear there.

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#143

Post by surgical_fire »

bee_rider wrote: post #128
surgical_fire wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair take. A lot of things I love were made my people that I find personally despicable. If I have to weight how much I like the creators and companies behind everything I consume, that will be recipe for a very tiresome and frustrating life. This is not to give a pass to Blizzard. The scandals there are pretty bad. But it's up to the employees (and perhaps to the judicial system) to do something about it.

Some of the employees were the perpetrators, some were the victims, and some decided putting food on the table was more important than making the moral stand. Management will do as much about this as the market incentivizes them to. Ultimately the ability to produce incentives is in the hands of consumers most directly, and through the judicial system, (so, pretty indirectly) voters. I dunno. I like classic rock and…

I buy things produced by companies know to make use of slave labor and pollute the environment. I enjoy art made by people that honestly deserve to be punched in the face everyday.

It's not about being proud or ashamed about anything there. If the powers that be refuse to punish people and corporations that deserve to be punished, I think it's ultimately unfair to offload that responsibility onto consumers.

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#144

Post by surgical_fire »

JohnFen wrote: post #127
surgical_fire wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that the vast majority people just don't care about the culture of harassment in the company. And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. Making shit products is something that affects consumers, and they will complain about that.

> And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. They should care, because buying their products is telling the company that they approve of its behavior (whatever that behavior is).

I vehemently disagree with this notion.

In the case of Blizzard, I won't play Diablo 4 because I really think they have been making shit games for more than a decade. But I don't fault anyone that will play Diablo 4. People like what they like.

The cases of abuse and harassment at Blizzard are known and well documented. If the powers that be refuse to act in order to punish the people and corporation involved, why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers?

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#145

Post by shrimp_emoji »

surgical_fire wrote: post #144
JohnFen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. They should care, because buying their products is telling the company that they approve of its behavior (whatever that behavior is).

I vehemently disagree with this notion. In the case of Blizzard, I won't play Diablo 4 because I really think they have been making shit games for more than a decade. But I don't fault anyone that will play Diablo 4. People like what they like. The cases of abuse and harassment at Blizzard are known and well documented. If the powers that be refuse to act in order to punish the people and corporation involved, why do…

Diablo Immortal makes more than any other game they've made.

So, the shittier something is (ethically, substantively), the more money it makes. Money really is the root of all evil.

Therefore, boycotting something because it's bad makes less sense than buying it because it's bad.

QED

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#146

Post by JohnFen »

surgical_fire wrote: post #144
JohnFen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And honestly, I don't see why they should, as it does not affect them as consumers. They should care, because buying their products is telling the company that they approve of its behavior (whatever that behavior is).

I vehemently disagree with this notion. In the case of Blizzard, I won't play Diablo 4 because I really think they have been making shit games for more than a decade. But I don't fault anyone that will play Diablo 4. People like what they like. The cases of abuse and harassment at Blizzard are known and well documented. If the powers that be refuse to act in order to punish the people and corporation involved, why do…

I don't fault anyone for making choices different from mine.

> why do we offload that responsibility onto consumers?

I don't view it as offloading anything onto customers. I view it as me deciding what sort of company I'm willing to keep and what sort of behavior I'm willing to support.

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#147

Post by stickfigure »

vkou wrote: post #142
stickfigure wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Blizzard used it in an ad campaign "before, during, and after I was separated". It's not like the text was secret. A simpler explanation is that an aggrieved party is not giving us the whole story. General advice: Be wary taking sides in nasty breakups even if ( especially if ) you want to like/dislike one or the other.

It's good advice when one person is pissed at another person, it's less good advice when that line of disgruntled people stretches down the block and around the corner. It's naive to assume good intentions when one party has a well-documented, multi-sourced history of behaving poorly. And a very simple explanation is that the people who got pissed at it weren't the people who worked on the ads, and even if they ultim…

You're anthropomorphizing a corporation. Blizzard has almost 10,000 employees and god only knows how many of those are managers. I'm sure some of the managers are great and some of them suck, just like everywhere else.

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#148

Post by vkou »

stickfigure wrote: post #147
vkou wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good advice when one person is pissed at another person, it's less good advice when that line of disgruntled people stretches down the block and around the corner. It's naive to assume good intentions when one party has a well-documented, multi-sourced history of behaving poorly. And a very simple explanation is that the people who got pissed at it weren't the people who worked on the ads, and even if they ultim…

You're anthropomorphizing a corporation. Blizzard has almost 10,000 employees and god only knows how many of those are managers. I'm sure some of the managers are great and some of them suck, just like everywhere else.

I'm not anthropomorphising anything, I'm observing trends and patterns in corporate culture. I'd be shocked if the kind of corporate culture that has rotted as much as theirs had would not have any petty, vidictive egoists at the top of the food chain.

'Blizzard' the company doesn't have feelings, but people making decisions in it do. I'm not sure why you're steering us into splitting hairs over this.

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#149

Post by arp242 »

stickfigure wrote: post #141
vkou wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not mustache-twirling villainy, it's just having a fragile ego and being pissed at a dig at you, which is common across all sorts of people, managers included.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Blizzard used it in an ad campaign "before, during, and after I was separated". It's not like the text was secret. A simpler explanation is that an aggrieved party is not giving us the whole story. General advice: Be wary taking sides in nasty breakups even if ( especially if ) you want to like/dislike one or the other.

Sometimes people really do mean-spirited petty things for petty reasons, and it really is "just" that simple and black/white. It certainly seems to me the story is entirely plausible, although of course I can't judge if it's also true, and I agree it's usually best to ignore these kind of anecdotes, but that's just because you can't easily separate the 'true' from the 'more complicated than that' ones.

Re: Blizzard CEO denies culture of harassment and blames unions for company problems

#150

Post by Rury »

nvy wrote: post #133
Rury wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but this is just nitpicking over something that's not really the point being made. The argument behind the OP still stands... the decisions being made by the company aren't ultimately being made by gamers or gamedevs (the workers who make the product / customers who use the product). So everything just turns to shit from a product standpoint...

Gamers/game devs making the business decisions isn't a panacea. Look what happened to Ion Storm with Daikatana.

Never said it was a panacea. Just that without product focused people having say in decisions, the product will inevitably turn to shit. That is not the same as saying: having them make decisions guarantees you a good product.
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