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50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

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Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#31

Post by Xichekolas »

zzzmarcus wrote: post #24
timr wrote: post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

On the other hand, as an engineer you can: -Work for a big company, a small company or just work for yourself. -Work from anywhere in the world you can take a laptop and an internet connection -Use free tools to create a product you can duplicate (and sell) infinitely -Be a part of an extremely active and passionate community that is on the cutting edge of the industry that is driving the global economy Where else ar…

You don't need a degree for any of those things.

While 'Engineer' is a set that may overlap 'Open Source Programmer' (what you described), it's definitely not an equivalent set, and I wouldn't even say it's a superset.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#33

Post by timr »

vitaminj wrote: post #15
timr wrote: post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

Because you'll run smack into the wall of age (and possibly sex) discrimination, right when you should be entering your prime earning years? Because you've got to eternally compete in the job market with 20-year-olds who will always be more proficient with new technologies, and willing to work at lower wages? Come on, that's not the typical experience of most engineers outside the IT/software sector, and as far as I'…

I think that engineering disciplines where professional certification are required tend to do a better job of rewarding experience. So do most professional degrees.

(That said, my father's an EE, and I know that age discrimination is a problem in his industry, too...it's just posed as a question of salary discrimination.)

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#34

Post by jhancock »

carterschonwald wrote: post #6
timr wrote: post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

this also means that if you're going into it, you have to really like it (in addition to being relatively intelligent), which is why the article talks about the "surprising" statistic that mit et al have very high retention rates (though I think caltech is a counterexample)

There are many aspects to consider in the differences in drop-out rates. One is that not all engineering programs are the same. MIT's education is very different than RPI's or Georgia Tech's (I'm went to GT). The RPI or GT style is more like 5 years of boot camp (yes, its really a 5 years program, another problem to consider when comparing against a management degree). Its a non-stop grind of 6 classes at a time with tests every week. MIT's is fewer classes with higher student:teacher ratio. The MIT program is structured to guide students to the finish line. The GT or RPI approach is very clear that they are trying to cull students.

I don't think either approach is wrong. They are just different. Do they produce different types of engineers? maybe. There are many other aspects to consider as well.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#35

Post by bokonist »

timr wrote: post #30
bokonist wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of upvotes for a rant. Is this your experience personally? Do you not like working for justin.tv?

Justin.tv is great...but it's not your typical engineering job. I think that a lot of the appeal of startups to young engineers is that they represent the opportunity to do things differently. Rather than tethering your future to the MBA bean-counter at corporate, you can have the chance to be corporate. That's a critical difference.

You make a pretty broad generalization that programming sucks as a career. I think you need to compare the best engineering jobs to the best MBA jobs, and the average engineering job to the average MBA job. So compare working at justin.tv to working as a Bain consultant. And compare being a typical big company engineer to being a middle manager. Does engineering still come out poorly as a career choice? Being an MBA middle manager's not exactly a load of fun, and you have student loans to pay off.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#36

Post by ajkirwin »

vitaminj wrote: post #15
timr wrote: post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

Because you'll run smack into the wall of age (and possibly sex) discrimination, right when you should be entering your prime earning years? Because you've got to eternally compete in the job market with 20-year-olds who will always be more proficient with new technologies, and willing to work at lower wages? Come on, that's not the typical experience of most engineers outside the IT/software sector, and as far as I'…

Not quite. My father was an aeronautical engineer. He hit his 40s and.. that was it. He was, thankfully, offered voluntary redundancy and they replaced him with someone half his age.

Thankfully, he had it in him to go back to college and retrain. He's now an analytical chemist, making far more and doing less work ;)

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#37

Post by bokonist »

RobertL wrote: post #29
timr wrote: post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

Right on timr. I have an MS in engineering and it took me 17 years on the job to figure out what a joke my degree was. Earning a degree in engineering is the functional equivalent of buying your way into slavery.

So if you could do it again, what degree/career path would you have chosen?

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#38

Post by timr »

bokonist wrote: post #35
timr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justin.tv is great...but it's not your typical engineering job. I think that a lot of the appeal of startups to young engineers is that they represent the opportunity to do things differently. Rather than tethering your future to the MBA bean-counter at corporate, you can have the chance to be corporate. That's a critical difference.

You make a pretty broad generalization that programming sucks as a career. I think you need to compare the best engineering jobs to the best MBA jobs, and the average engineering job to the average MBA job. So compare working at justin.tv to working as a Bain consultant. And compare being a typical big company engineer to being a middle manager. Does engineering still come out poorly as a career choice? Being an MBA…

The average case is effectively the only one that matters, since that's where most people will end up.

The fundamental difference between your average MBA and your average engineer, in my opinion, is that engineers are viewed as tactical assets by the business people, whereas business people view themselves as strategic assets. Only in small tech companies are the technical problems so important that the engineers become strategic advantages. That kind of thinking is still pretty rare.

(But for what it's worth, your hypothetical Bain consultant is earning a six-figure salary, traveling around the world and developing hugely important business experience and professional contacts that will serve him well when he leaves consulting. Even the best engineering jobs have limited expanse and authority -- you interact with techies, focus on the details of implementing someone else's vision, and rarely rise to a level where strategic thinking is required.)

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#39

Post by [deleted] »

kalvin wrote: post #16
lhorn wrote: post #4

That's because our system somehow rewards real estate speculators, mortgage brokers, middle management, lawyers and healthcare professionals way more than it rewards engineers. I don't really know why this is happening, but I am sure you all have met a few MBA types who have "the vision" and looking for "just" a code monkey to build their fortune. This is also the reason why GE/Ford/Chrysler continued building shit f…

That's funny, it's a routine complaint at Stanford that all the campus job fairs are filled with companies recruiting engineers and nobody else. :p Our system also rewards engineers way more than teachers, graduates who go into public service, and-- at graduation time, at least-- anyone with a humanities degree. I'd worry about fixing compensation for teachers before rewarding engineers... Google is an engineering fi…

[deleted]

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#40

Post by alecco »

Xichekolas wrote: post #31
zzzmarcus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, as an engineer you can: -Work for a big company, a small company or just work for yourself. -Work from anywhere in the world you can take a laptop and an internet connection -Use free tools to create a product you can duplicate (and sell) infinitely -Be a part of an extremely active and passionate community that is on the cutting edge of the industry that is driving the global economy Where else ar…

You don't need a degree for any of those things. While 'Engineer' is a set that may overlap 'Open Source Programmer' (what you described), it's definitely not an equivalent set, and I wouldn't even say it's a superset.

  Clean Room Technician: You know what they do with engineers when they turn forty?
  [to Aaron, who shakes his head]
  Clean Room Technician: They take them out and shoot them.
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