50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
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50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
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Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#2Incidentally, the National Science Foundation and the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics describe the Obama's education plan as abysmally bad. Specifically the NSF and NCTM are very much against the AP curriculum, which Obama wants to expand by 50% over the next few years. I think the exact quote is that AP science/math courses represent "the worst kind of pedagogy" or something like that.
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#3Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better?
Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs?
Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives?
Because you'll run smack into the wall of age (and possibly sex) discrimination, right when you should be entering your prime earning years?
Because you've got to eternally compete in the job market with 20-year-olds who will always be more proficient with new technologies, and willing to work at lower wages?
Let's be real: as a career, engineering sucks. We shouldn't scratch our heads and act totally shocked when young people turn their noses up at the prospect of working like a dog until they turn 40, only to be laid off by the guys who played frisbee golf and drank their way through school.
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#4That's because our system somehow rewards real estate speculators, mortgage brokers, middle management, lawyers and healthcare professionals way more than it rewards engineers. I don't really know why this is happening, but I am sure you all have met a few MBA types who have "the vision" and looking for "just" a code monkey to build their fortune. This is also the reason why GE/Ford/Chrysler continued building shit for decades, giving out multi-million dollar bonuses to their top-tier management.
Someone suggested it's because we live in a "services economy" not a "product economy" and, therefore, the value of engineering is declining. There is some truth in that: google isn't an engineering firm, they are in the entertainment business, very much like ESPN, Fox and those annoying guys in big hats at your local Tres Amigos.
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#5Any recent engineering grads here who can tell us if there really is a shortage? If you guys are getting multiple job offers with hiring bonuses, there is. If not, there isn't.
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#6Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…
this also means that if you're going into it, you have to really like it (in addition to being relatively intelligent), which is why the article talks about the "surprising" statistic that mit et al have very high retention rates (though I think caltech is a counterexample)
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#7I agree that there are probably a lot of improvements to be made in undergraduate engineering education.
However...
I think it's a big mistake to assume that every engineering dropout represents a failure of the college, or even a failure of the student. Maybe it's simply a question of incoming students not having the slightest idea what an engineering degree is all about. I seem to remember a lot of people who signed up for engineering before they discovered that you need to learn a lot of fairly difficult math and physics to be an engineer, after which they switched to something else.
That's why the dropout rate is so much smaller at MIT and other elite engineering schools: The students are preselected for their affinity for math and/or physics. For example, I can't help but notice that Olin's "redefinition of engineering education" includes this bullet point:
Applicants are required to spend a weekend at Olin before acceptance. During the weekend they participate in team engineering projects to assess their teamwork and technical skill.
Note: "Assess their technical skill." Now, I'm not saying that Olin's not a great school, but if you get to hand-pick the students, and then you give them a 100% scholarship, having a low dropout rate isn't much of an achievement. I assume with confidence that the vast majority of calculus-phobic people get weeded out before they ever get to Olin. At least, I hope so, because otherwise this practice would be cruel and unusual punishment:
Other engineering schools require students to take foundational courses in physics, thermo-dynamics, chemistry, and math for the first two years. Olin introduces these disciplines as needed throughout the 4 years.
If there's anything worse than hitting the wall in year one, it's being encouraged to go through a year or two in the major before you hit the wall.
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#8Incidentally, the National Science Foundation and the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics describe the Obama's education plan as abysmally bad. Specifically the NSF and NCTM are very much against the AP curriculum, which Obama wants to expand by 50% over the next few years. I think the exact quote is that AP science/math courses represent "the worst kind of pedagogy" or something like that.
The NSF and NCTM are anti-AP? I googled and didn't turn up anything on this, but it's altogether possible that I didn't search on the right terms.
Do you have any links?
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#9Well, I nearly drop out recent two years. It is unbearable in university to see so many students who are 4th year and don't have basic skills in programming (i.e. comparing two double variables in C with == operator). As playing a while with profs, I am so confident that I have all the skills and knowledges I should know in the next 3 years. It is just had to stick on CS major when you had them all. The only reason I still here is that I am so desperately wanting to publish a good paper in next year.
Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?
#10Incidentally, the National Science Foundation and the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics describe the Obama's education plan as abysmally bad. Specifically the NSF and NCTM are very much against the AP curriculum, which Obama wants to expand by 50% over the next few years. I think the exact quote is that AP science/math courses represent "the worst kind of pedagogy" or something like that.
Could you provide some links? I googled a bit for some information, and didn't find much, and I'd like to read about this in more detail. It seems odd that either organization would be anti-AP, and Obama's proposed policies would provide more benefits to mathematicians and scientists who decided to teach in high schools...