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What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

theatlantic.com

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Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#241

Post by chrisbrandow »

I keeps seeing so much evidence that in the US at least, we have so few social/communal institutions in our lives that leave each of us working so hard to figure out how to live a life.

While the last century is filled with examples of how institutions have failed us, I think we have lost a lot in terms of community living. How many in-perosn, built-in friendships and relationships do any of us have outside of the college experience, or for those of us with kids the child-rearing institutions where we can mingle with other parents?

We can obviously "join a club" or whatever, but there is so little by default, so we are all trying to figure it out anew.

This isn't to blame anyone in particular, but I grieve how much isolation feels built into our daily lives.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#242

Post by rakah »

ido wrote: post #137
mschuster91 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. Make childcare not a choice between living in poverty and not, and people will have children again. Many of my generation including myself can't afford children despite us wanting to. The worst problem is obviously housing costs and cost of living in general, coupled with wage stagnation. We don't wa…

The thing is that even countries with excellent social safety nets and childcare benefits (like northern and western europe) have seen their birth rate fall in the last 50 years. In fact the most common correlation is that as countries get richer & more prosperous, birthrates drop.

50 years also roughly aligns with the development of chemical birth control.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#243

Post by standardUser »

andrewclunn wrote: post #220

Used to be family, then people became estranged from their parents and many didn't have kids. Then it was romance and marriage, but fewer people can even find those, let alone keep them into their old age. Friendship is the next in the line of "good enough" bonds people might accept to avoid completely loneliness. Of course there's always AI and pets as the new "true companions" for 2040. Readers of the Atlantic seem…

I have at least a dozen close friendships that have outlived a series of romantic relationships over the years. Friendships are and have always been the the backbone of my social existence. Romantic relationships are comparatively ephemeral, even if they sometimes supplant friendships as the most important relationship in my life. Just to offer a different perspective. Also, what is your dig at Atlantic readers all about? Got an ax to grind?

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#244

Post by KineticLensman »

bumby wrote: post #221
willio58 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Externally, it seems this bond could be explained by: 1. Everyone is together, away from distractions, and unable to leave easily for months on end 2. You are working toward shared goals 3. You are friendly toward each other It's a recipe for a strong bond. Another example of this is famous bands. They're constantly traveling for work, together, trying to write more music and become more famous as they go.

> You are friendly toward each other Many civilians are aghast when they see how Marines act toward one another. The constant shit-talking and physical fighting probably wouldn't be described as "friendly" but definitely "brotherly"

The way I've heard it described in the British Army is "We will laugh if you fall down but we will help you up"

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#245

Post by xracy »

dash2 wrote: post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

I'm in a relationship now, but I spent a vast majority of my life single. And the thing I learned from being single, was how to be okay with myself and love myself in spite of the world thinking I was "broken" for being alone. I feel strongly that this independence has fostered a confidence and understanding in all of my relationships that makes me a better person.

And I feel this way because I see people all the time who are the opposite of this. They have to be in a relationship. The moment someone is out of a relationship, they have no coping mechanism for it, until they get into their next relationship. They take no time to process it. They are dependent on the relationship, and can't function without it. I have seen this from men and women. These people disappear when they're in a relationship. Like, I have friends who are only my friend when they're single.

That's not healthy. That's people conflating sex with being loved/important, (and I can absolutely confirm I've seen people do that as part of this). If you don't know what loving/being loved is, it's real easy to assume that whatever you experience that's closest to it is what it is.

There's a Daniel Sloss quote that "If you only love yourself 20% someone can come along and love you 40%, and you'll think 'WOW that's so much that you love me', but it's literally less than half of you that you love. Your self esteem is just so low that you're letting people love you less than you should." (Paraphrased). That's what we risk in people not learning to be okay with themselves as a single people.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#246

Post by standardUser »

vorpalhex wrote: post #176
thomastjeffery wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

Sure, you can have a bunch of friends and sex partners. Those can never fulfill what a life partner is. Friends are great. Casual sex can be great. Neither of those give you someone who is so close to you they become part of your identity. Casual sex especially can be deceiving if one person is using that as a vehicle for emotional investment and the other isn't. That's how people get deeply hurt. Relationships end.…

Friendships outlast romantic relationships on a consistent basis. Ask anyone who has ever gone through a break up. I'd also consider that there is an entire universe of romantic relationships between "life partner" and "casual sex", and it's between those two extremes that most relationships exist.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#247

Post by toomuchtodo »

0xr0kk3r wrote: post #172
BJBBB wrote: post #120

This is an edge case. Marines in particular, and the military members in general, will form a special bond that can seldom be duplicated elsewhere. And that has been my experience. I was among a group of six that met at the schoolhouse after boot camp. We did not get sent to the same units, but we were all PCS'd to the same base. Two of us (not myself) made a career of the corps, and the others went to school after s…

"seldom duplicated elsewhere" I hear this same sentiment from marines, cops, fireman, and fraternity members. I also hear it from Masons, Elks, Shriners, etc. I don't understand why men have to think they've "discovered" something about lifelong bonds that is exclusive to just men's clubs. My guess is that men are taught not to have strong emotional bonds with anyone but their mothers or wives, and then think it is s…

Men haven't rediscovered it, they're simply enumerating that deep bonds are forged in shared struggle and suffering [1]. There is no Disney ending, and life is not a fairytale. Life is about shit getting real and hoping the people you need are within arm's reach. Maybe that's friends, maybe that's a partner, maybe that's both. It does not just happen, it has to be cultivated intentionally.

@BJBBB: Solid plan.

[1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761454588...

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#248

Post by medo-bear »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #184
medo-bear wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this sounds like you think you are saying something entirely novel. it is actually just common sense. see it is true there are many kinds of relationships, but there is only one type of relationship that resembles having a successful marriage and family, and it is quite special

If what I am saying is just common sense, then why is what you have to say "quite special"? In all sincerity, it sounds like you're just talking out of your ass. The world exists around you, not inside your own mind. You are no more or less special than me.

i didnt claim what i said is special. i said that a particular relationship is special, a family relationship, and particularly that of marriage. i also think that this claim is common sense, and hope it continues to be common sense

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#249

Post by hansc »

jvm___ wrote: post #54
mydriasis wrote: post #28

I don't like anyone as much as I like my wife, straight up. It's incredible to have a partner that acts as my actual 'other half'. We are two sides of the same coin. It's an amazing thing. I can't, nor do I want to, get that close to other people.

That doesn't always happen though. I feel the most lonely when I'm alone with my wife. We can only have a back and forth conversation on topics that interest her, or the day to day of the house/kids, anything outside those things is just never discussed or is a one-way conversation that just dies. I was friendless and grew up with the same 15 boys until the end of highschool, never fit in. Married the first girl who…

I like what Steven Covey writes: "Love is a verb".

I find that both my wife and myself, and myself and my kids get closer by doing things together that we all enjoy. This ranges from trying out a new restaurant in town, to going to a museum or themepark we all enjoy, to going on holidays.

What I am trying to say is that experiencing things together may help you bond more and experience pleasant feelings together.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#250

Post by xracy »

nashashmi wrote: post #230
thomastjeffery wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

> There is more than one kind of relationship! Trying to equate them all as relationships is a misdirection. Relationships with your friends, parents, children, and spouse are not going to be comparable ever. They each have their place. We are trying to flatten them out to how they make us feel. This is an obtuse hammer for an intricately shaped interior. Example: children are about the future, friendships are not co…

> Example: children are about the future, friendships are not commitments, parents are a compass, spouse is life insurance. (I am simplifying to make a point.)

If you're simplifying you're missing the point of this. But I suspect you're not just simplifying to make a point, but this is actually what you believe.

Maybe you've never had a really close friendship that you've felt obligated to keep alive. That requires work to fix something about it. It's absolutely a commitment. You can make any level of commitment to anyone. It's not a sexual commitment, but for example how many people have you wronged if you sleep with a friend's spouse? It's not just your own spouse.

You've also wronged your friend in that. And I can tell you, if you have children, that the fallout from that likely means you've wronged your children. The same act functionally affects all of those people in a similarly meaningful way. That makes them all reasonably commitments in the same way that you see marriage as a commitment.

There are pieces of a friendship that you are agreeing to or the friendship will end. That makes it a much weaker contract, but also means it requires a lot more work to keep alive. Parents/family are the opposite of that. Because the contract of parenthood/family is so strong, it's a lot less work to keep that bond well. But you can absolutely fuck it up and cut people loose.

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