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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#541

Post by H12 »

alkonaut wrote: post #90
commitpizza wrote: post #81

Here is a good walk-through of the changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutR_LNoZw0 I don't particularly care about Rust but one of the reasons I've hesitated to learn / use it was because the project seemed like it was led by woke people that pushed politics into the programming space which imo is completely unnecessary. One thing I've learned by experience is that people who push their political agenda into eve…

Politics is everywhere and everything. There is no chance of "keeping politics out of" anything. Making such a decision or rule is highly political too. This goes for sports, entertainment, culture, tech, open source.. The fact that there are "counterexamples" of successful projects that "thrive without involving politics and never had a CoC" isn't an argument to the contrary.

I also find myself frequently questioning the labeling of things one doesn't like as "political".

Having a code of conduct that focuses on treating people w/ respect and discouraging personal attacks is not political, and it's strange to me that someone would label it as such.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#542

Post by jq-r »

KerrAvon wrote: post #489
jq-r wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slashdot is a good example how a vastly unpopular redesign to make the site more "modern" can bring the whole business down. It's not even the bad redesign per se; it's sticking to it, and not reversing on it. A real shame in my opinion as I think that auto-moderation system is the best I've seen.

It was ridiculously easy to game the Slashdot moderation system. You knew what topics would get upvoted -- positive about Linux, negative about something like SCO during the lawsuit period. It was not difficult to accumulate karma.

I'm not sure if that was the fault of moderation system. This is more of an echo chamber effect which exists everywhere where there are humans involved. Not sure if technology can change that.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#543

Post by Woodi »

bluGill wrote: post #535
cies wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know about many successful fork. But forking a language (like including the compiler and the lang spec), never seen that work out.

C forked Algo. (and many others) ADA forked Pascal (modula? - another fork of Pascal). C++ forked C and Simula. D forked C++. Objective C forked C and gcc. (eventually folded back)

Do any of that languages had some Hollywood level bullshit about language name ?

Mozilla isn't open source first fundation(?), forking of their stuff is urgent.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#544

Post by Woodi »

reactordev wrote: post #455
timkofu wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s evidence of division and strife. They have allowed the environment to get toxic. Groups that were planning on adopting Rust will now think twice, as it’s future now looks uncertain. All organizations that produce something valuable face this test, it’s the ones that don’t fracture that succeed.

This. When tech leaders look at Rust as a solution for legacy products and services - then see Crab grab - it makes them think the ecosystem isn't mature enough for their 25+yr old platform.

No. Linux adopted it. MS adopted it (but that can easily be meanningless). So it is quite mature.

And you are saying that multitude of C compilers make C less mature ?? You are literally saying "tech leaders" use some kind of reverse logic :) Maybe Mozilla isn't Oracle but "trademarking" lang name is just Java-like move.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#545

Post by infamouscow »

Woodi wrote: post #544
reactordev wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. When tech leaders look at Rust as a solution for legacy products and services - then see Crab grab - it makes them think the ecosystem isn't mature enough for their 25+yr old platform.

No. Linux adopted it. MS adopted it (but that can easily be meanningless). So it is quite mature. And you are saying that multitude of C compilers make C less mature ?? You are literally saying "tech leaders" use some kind of reverse logic :) Maybe Mozilla isn't Oracle but "trademarking" lang name is just Java-like move.

Rust support was limited in scope and extremely experimental in Linux.

It's more likely to be removed if the effort failed (which it seems to be) than it was to be added in the first place.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#546

Post by HumanOstrich »

srslack wrote: post #330
HumanOstrich wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, it's good to see someone consistently pushing back against hate and refusing to give up or be silenced.

That's a funny definition of "hate" you have there.

No, it's not really funny at all.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#547

Post by srslack »

HumanOstrich wrote: post #546
srslack wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a funny definition of "hate" you have there.

No, it's not really funny at all.

You’re right, I was being charitable to try and adhere to guidelines. Should’ve been “delusional” instead of “funny.”

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#548

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

Xylakant wrote: post #521
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Rust is defined by the implementation. Hopefully not for long: https://github.com/ferrocene/specification https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/the-ferrocene-language-spec... Hopefully Ferrocene can lead to Rust itself being standardized. To me, it seems inevitable that there will be multiple implementations of Rust, especially if Rust continues to be more widely adopted and used in new domains. I would also not be sur…

I'm involved in the Ferrocene project (1), so I'd like to clarify some things about the Ferrocene Language Specification. It is deliberately called Ferrocene Language Specification and not Rust Language Specification. The specification serves first and foremost the needs of the Ferrocene project - we just need a spec to certify the compiler. It may be useful to others, that's why we open sourced it. It is not a speci…

Thank you for your work on Ferrocene, clarifications, and the link to the Rust RFC.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#549

Post by alexvoda »

toyg wrote: post #539
alexvoda wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing GPs point. The default today is not the Unix model, it is the Windows model and increasingly the SaaS model. You have none of the 4 freedoms by default. GP argued that by law by default you should have at least freedom 0 and 1. GP argued that it should not be legal to withhold freedom 0 and 1. GP argued that freedom 0 and 1 should by default actually be facilitated by providing source code. They are a…

> They are arguing for changing the status quo and that doing so gradually is more feasible than all at once. This has been argued over and over and over, and it has made no difference whatsoever. All the limited-rights licenses that have been tried from time to time (MPL et al) have simply fallen by the wayside: because, in reality, nobody is actually interested in this "right to repair" - it was around in the Unix…

> The sandbox is the world at this point, closed software is retreating every day to smaller and smaller niches. You use browsers developed in the open, on websites built with opensource software. Even on mobile, the foundational frameworks are open - the most popular mobile OS is opensource. Obviously it's not a perfect state of things, but it's a world apart from the bad old '90s, and we did get here by keeping the Overton window firmly rooted at one end, thanks in large part to the FSF.

The only open source browser with significant usage is Firefox and it is in the single digits. Chromium might be open source but it is not what people use, it's in the other category in statistics. People use Chrome and Edge and Safari and Opera and Vivaldi and none of them are open source. The number of people using AOSP is also vanishingly small. Most Android users use one of the proprietary variants of Android. The year of the Linux desktop never came. The most popular Linux variant after the proprietary Android is the proprietary ChromeOS. And, worst of all, many services that before didn't even involve a computer (ordering food, calling a ride, banking, etc.), now are done through closed source software. It is getting harder and harder to live without proprietary software.

So absolutely not, the sandbox is not the world, the sandbox is getting smaller and smaller in comparison to the world.

The argument was not to no longer hold the Overton window pinned. The argument was to advocate for consumer rights and protections in LAW. Free software advocates are vary much interested in right to repair because right to repair also counters tivo-isation. And the world is much more tivo-ized than it ever was. That the world became so tivo-ized is also a sign of how ineffective the FSF has been at countering a threat they were among the first to draw attention to. You can have all the free software in the world and it is of no use if you can not run it on any hardware.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#550

Post by hurril »

jakear wrote: post #184
hurril wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the Rust foundation that considers it's users dumb and little, unable to think for themselves and determine which resources are worth using. How could you in good faith read what I said and come away thinking I support controlling the availability of resources named rust? Those are your words and I think you should own them. The trademark process is there to prevent malicious entities from doing that. And in a…

If you cant wait for the cool off period to expire before responding, consider you might be too worked up to make a coherent case. For one, any reasonable interpreter of the English language would understand that sentiment was being attributed to the foundation, not me. And someone wanting to use the word Rust doesn't make them "infringing". It's a word. It's a technology. I can use any other technology name to descr…

Cool off period? I am calm as a jug of yoghurt my dear Internet friend :)

It seems to me that it would be educational for you to read a little about how trademarks work. The stuff that you direct at me has thorough explanations; these are not my opinions. To be honest: I'm not even 100% sure I even want the current trademark system, but I do understand the arguments for it.

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