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Statement on AI Risk

safe.ai

911–920 of 964 posts

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#911
post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm eternally skeptical of the tech business, but I think you're jumping to conclusions, here. I'm on a first-name basis with several people near the top of this list. They are some of the smartest, savviest, most thoughtful, and most principled tech policy experts I've met. These folks default to skepticism of the tech business, champion open data, are deeply familiar with the risks of regulatory capture, and don't…

Maybe these people have good intentions and are just being naive They might not be getting paid, but that doesn’t mean they are not being influenced AI at this point is pretty much completely open, all the papers, math and science behind it are public Soon, people will have advanced AI running locally on their phones and watches So unless they scrub the Internet, start censoring this stuff, and pretty much ban comput…

I sure when openAI converted to successful company, we had lost the game. AGI had won whole world. openAI was the organisation should stop AI damage.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#912
post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're arguing is "what is the minimum viable power envelope for a super intelligence". Currently that answer is "quite a lot". But for the sake of cutting out a lot of argument lets say you have a cellphone sized device that runs on battery power for 24 hours that can support a general intelligence. Lets say, again for arguments sake, there are millions of devices like this distributed in the population. Do you…

No I'm not arguing that. My point is that if an AI is trying to take over the world we can just turn it off, regardless of power budgets. If it runs on millions of hacked devices, how do you turn it off? The same way any botnet gets turned off: virus scanners clean it up, the C&C servers get taken down, etc. This is not a new problem. The usual response to this is to claim that superintelligence will develop so fast…

So how do you turn off terrorists? I mean we had a global war on terror that we've spent billions of dollars on, and they are still out there?

You keep acting like AGI is just going to be some other program. And yes, we do not have AGI yet. No planning, no continuous chain of thinking/learning at this point. But thinking that anti-virus would have a chance in hell again AGI is pretty weak when AV tends to fall apart pretty quick with a human behind the computer. Again, thinking of this as an application and not an adversary would be an incredible mistake. Taking out global adversaries that attack over the internet is near impossible, especially if they have shelter in an enemies foreign country. And this isn't going to be like a human where you kill the leader and it stops. People would be harboring copies for the lulz.

>unclear why anyone would pay for such massive CPU overkill in the first place.

It's also unclear why companies like Google have tens of thousands of engineers at times, but if the application produces useful results, and it's corporate masters think they'll make more profit from it then the operating costs they will gladly keep pouring coal in the furnace for it. And then in military applications one side will make more powerful AI because they fear the other side will make a more powerful AI and get an advantage. I mean we already spend billions of dollars a year upkeeping enough nuclear weapons to flash fry most of the population on earth.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#913
post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm eternally skeptical of the tech business, but I think you're jumping to conclusions, here. I'm on a first-name basis with several people near the top of this list. They are some of the smartest, savviest, most thoughtful, and most principled tech policy experts I've met. These folks default to skepticism of the tech business, champion open data, are deeply familiar with the risks of regulatory capture, and don't…

Maybe these people have good intentions and are just being naive They might not be getting paid, but that doesn’t mean they are not being influenced AI at this point is pretty much completely open, all the papers, math and science behind it are public Soon, people will have advanced AI running locally on their phones and watches So unless they scrub the Internet, start censoring this stuff, and pretty much ban comput…

There's range of functionality in software technology, i.e. some new framework, may have been outputed fully developed and internally debugged for years in some startup, or you could have a really almost not even a production level software, just uploaded to github.

In most projects, many unmatured software is being used just because works for some specific task, nowadays.

With that in mind, it is easy to hyphotetize that many projects are already using LLMs internally. Not always for good deeds, easily, one of the most and best use cases, is to use LLMs to command & control distributed malware.

So there you go, it maybe possible that some beta level of intelligent malware is already roaming the Internet right now. We'll know for sure in some years from now (the usual time for advanced malware to be discovered is somewhat 2-3 years after it has been took it to production).

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#914
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hear similar arguments from those who believe climate change is happening but disagree with current efforts to counter-act it. The logic being that right now climate change is not causing any major harm and that we can't really predict the future so there's no point in worrying about what might happen in a decade or two. I don't think anyone is arguing that right now climate change or AI is threat to human civili…

> slightly more advanced LLM I don't think there is a path, that we know if, from GPT4 to a LLM that could take it upon itself to execute complex plans, etc. Current LLM tech 'fizzles out' exponentially in the size of the prompt, and I don't think we have a way out of that. We could speculate though... Basically AI risk proponents make a bunch of assumptions about how powerful next-level AI could be, but in reality w…

When you have no clue, it makes sense to expand your confidence interval in both directions. So it could be a lot longer than we expect, but it could be shorter, too. You shouldn't just say "we have no clue, so it's probably further off and not worth worrying about". Especially since a lot of people made predictions about LLM capabilities and were surprised by how much better they worked than expected.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> borderline offensive to question them I would be happy to politely discuss any proposition regarding AI Risk. I don't think any claim should go unquestioned. I can also point you to much longer-form discussions. For example, this post, which has 670 comments, discussing various aspects of the argument: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uMQ3cqWDPHhjtiesc/agi-ruin-a...

I appreciate your reasonableness. I follow LW to some degree, but even the best of it (like the post you link) feels very in-group confirmation centric. That post is long and I have not read it all, but it seems to be missing any consideration of AGI upside. It’s like talking about the risk of dying in a car crash with no consideration of the benefits of travel. If I ask you “do you want to get in a metal can that ha…

While I agree that the rhetoric around AI Safety would be better if it tried to address some of the benefits (and not embody the full doomer vibe), I don't think many of the 'core thinkers' are unaware of the benefits in AGI. I don't fully agree with this paper's conclusions, but I think https://nickbostrom.com/astronomical/waste is one piece that embodies this style of thinking well!

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#916

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't follow. It's like saying "if the AI can build a gun that can kill a human, it can build an anti-gun that can stop the gun". Why couldn't it? Metal of X thickness = stopped bullet. Not exactly a hard problem to solve for. Humans managed it quite quickly. But either way it misses the point. > So maybe the killer AI would need two months.. Yes, maybe it would. Maybe it wouldn't. Look at every single one o…

> Why couldn't it? Metal of X thickness = stopped bullet. Not exactly a hard problem to solve for. I mean... talking about real-world guns, technology already evolved to the point that doesn't really work anymore? Modern body armor isn't about metal of X thickness, it's about material science and spreading out the impacts, and even then it can only sustain a few direct hits. Like, the asymmetry between offense and de…

You're overthinking it. If what you're saying is true, assassinations would run rampant. They don't, despite your perceived asymmetry.

The AI doesn't have to stop the gun from firing, or even being manufactured. It has to stop the bullet from hitting the intended target. It can do this in a myriad of ways - like, for example, shooting the other first.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#917

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think most animals have every right to fear us more now that we have guns. Just like Id fear a chimp more if he was carrying a machine gun. My argument is that if we're looking for things AI can't to, building a home for itself is precisely one of those things, because they require so much infra. No amount of AI banding together is going to magically create a data center with all the required (physical) suppo…

Sorry, my gun analogy was unclear. I meant that, just because some agents on a planet have an ability, doesn't mean that everyone on that planet benefits. I agree that we probably won't see human extinction before robotics gets much better, and that robot factories will require lots of infrastructure. But I claim that robotics + automated infrastructure will eventually get good enough that they don't need humans in t…

I think we've converged on a partial agreement, but I wanted to clarify the gun analogy part.

I would also be afraid of chipmunks if I knew that 1/100 or even 1/1000 could explode me with their mind powers or something. I think AI is not like that, but the analogy is that if some can do something better, then when required, we can leverage those chosen few for a task. This connects back to the alien chess tournament as "Humans are now much harder to beat at chess because they can find a slave champion named COMPUTER who can guarantee at least a draw".

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#918

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t erase the need of cynicism. Many people in academia come from industry, have friends in industry, or other stakes. They might have been persuaded by the rhetoric of stakeholders within industry (you saw this early in the climate debate; and still do), and they might also be hoping to get a job in the industry later on. There is also a fair amount of group think within academia, so if a prominent individu…

What’s more likely, that everyone on this list just happens to have some overlapping ulterior motive or that they actually believe it?

Quite often these intersect. But also it is healthy to question the motives of signaturees asking for public policy. Especially when a significant number of them are direct stakeholders. When an academic signs such a list, their motives should be equally questioned.

Cool username btw. Any relation to the band?

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another is the fact their lines of reasoning are literal fantasy. Isn't this also to be expected at this stage of development? i.e. if these concerns were not "fantasy", we'd already be experiencing the worst outcomes? The risk of MAD is real, and yet the scenarios unleashed by MAD are scenarios that humankind has never seen. We still take the the risk seriously. And what of the very real impact that generative AI…

> The risk of MAD is real, and yet the scenarios unleashed by MAD are scenarios that humankind has never seen. We still take the the risk seriously. Yeah, because nuclear weapons are real and the science behind them is well-understood. Super intelligent AI is not real, and it is nowhere near becoming real. It is a fantasy fueled by science-fiction and wishful thinking. > And what of the very real impact that generati…

> Super intelligent AI is not real, and it is nowhere near becoming real.

I don’t think anyone claiming that super intelligent AI is already here have thought this through. But on what basis do you feel confident to place a bet with certainty that it’s “nowhere near becoming real”?

At a minimum, we know that AI technology has made a huge leap forward, if nothing else in the public consciousness. Again, entire industries are about to be eliminated, when just a few years ago no one would have believed claims about language models so good they could convince misguided engineers into thinking they’re sentient.

This explosion of AI is itself accelerating the explosion. The world is now focused on advancing this tech, and unlike “Web3”, people recognize that the use cases are real.

It’s in the context of this acceleration that I don’t understand where “everything is fine” can possibly come from? And how are the underlying factors used to derive such a stance substantively better than the factors leading people to worry?

> Losing jobs does not threaten our existence;

Based on a growing understanding of psychology, there’s an argument to be made that losing jobs is akin to losing one’s purpose in life. This is not to say that people can’t learn to derive satisfaction from other activities, but if job loss outpaces our ability to transition masses of people to a fundamentally new kind of living, that’s going to drastically alter the state of public consciousness and the resulting decisions we collectively make. We’re already experiencing a mental health crisis, and that seems to be coming from our failure to understand and safely integrate the last generation of new technology. We’re still in the stage of trying to figure out what we’ve fucked up and not much closer to having an answer or solution. And once we identify the problem, it’s not clear that solutions can be implemented effectively at scale.

I think too many people are looking at this as some kind of “Humans vs. AI” thing, but are missing the fact that we’re talking about drastic changes to an ecosystem without considering the 2nd/3rd/nth order implications of those changes, and their likely impact on collective consciousness and mental health, especially when you add the backdrop of hyper-polarization and dysfunction in the institutions that are supposed to be responsible for figuring out that new societal structure. All of which ultimately impacts global power structures, the destabilization of which leads to hard-science kinds of obliteration.

> it just means we'll need to figure out different ways to build society.

That’s an enormously large hand-wave when you consider the implications of such an unplanned transition. “Figure out different ways to build society” almost universally comes from/with violence, poverty, starvation, unrest, etc. The status quo will not change until things have gotten truly bad.

An AI system need not be super-intelligent to have serious implications for humanity. There is a significant amount of harm that precedes “complete extinction”, and I think we can’t discard the myriad of intermediately bad outcomes just to posit that there is no existential risk. To me, “existential” primarily points to “the possibility of fundamentally altering humanity’s existence in ways that most people would agree are undesirable”. The culmination of which is total extinction, but there’s a long distance between “this is adversely impacting humanity enough that we should take active steps to counteract that harm” and “this is so bad it will kill all humans”. You could be right that we’re nowhere close to extinction level tech, but if we’re heading towards it, there are a lot of checkpoints along the way worthy of scrutiny.

> The fact that it's so difficult to define lies at the center of what makes it so profitable for many of these people.

The fact that this may ultimately benefit the businesses currently at the forefront is orthogonal to the credibility of the risks. The two are not mutually exclusive, and focusing only on the potential of profit is a trap.

Re: Statement on AI Risk

#920
post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Taken to the limit if you extrapolate how many future human lives could be extinguished by a runaway AI you get extremely unsettling answers. Like the expected value of a .01% change of extinction from AI might be Trillions of quality Human lives. (This could in fact be on the very very conservative side, e.g. Nick Bostrom has speculated that there could be 10^35 human lives to be lived in the far future whi…

Actual people are vastly outnumbered by entropy fluctuations in the long run, according to any number of valid cosmological models. Their total population is greater than 10^35 by far, and does not depend on whether superintelligence is possible or likely to destroy the actual human race. That question makes no difference to almost every human who will ever have a thought or feeling. You could say, well, that's just…

The last gas I passed had 10^23 entropy fluctuations in it. So you're saying those are more important than the 100 Billion human lives that came before them?
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