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Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

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Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#181

Post by marginalia_nu »

yosefjaved1 wrote: post #177
marginalia_nu wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go? What you're forgetting is that taxes differ quite a lot from country to country. That, and cost of living is a factor too. If food and housing costs half as much, then even though you're paid less, you're not really poorer for it. I think many American developers are…

I would also add the strength of the dollar. If the dollar appreciates to the value of the local country's currency, then the revenue earned from there using the local currency for pricing and transacting begins to be worth less.

If it was true, wouldn't we expect Japanese developers to be paid 0.7% as much as American developers?

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#182

Post by pcthrowaway »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #161
qwytw wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you saying that socialism can only exist if it's imposed and maintained by the state? (i.e. no democratic society can be socialist by definition?)

>So are you saying that socialism can only exist if it's imposed and maintained by the state? I 'm not sure I understand the question? Socialism is a political philosophy on how the state should operate and what it should permit. It IS a description of the states behavior. Democracy has nothing to do with it. You can have a socialist country with a king, or with direct democracy and no leader. You can't have a social…

I think some of the confusion is from how the word is used now.

People refer to systems which apply socialist thinking as socialism, even if the governance is not a state government.

For example, let's say a theoretical union takes guidance from the political philosophy of socialism, and requires union members to contribute the highest percentage of their salary as union dues, that they can legally get away with. Let's say workers are paying 90% of their salaries in union dues.

The union can then use those dues to support the union members in various ways.

This isn't a state government, but it behaves like a socialist system and people would probably call it an example of socialism.

The wikipedia page on [religious socialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_socialism) even has some examples of this in religious communities.

You also have socialist anarchy, which supports stateless socialism

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#183

Post by _8j50 »

bruce511 wrote: post #175
_8j50 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, then let me rephrase it simply: SWE should be getting paid as much as they can collectively negotiate and companies who already get the best tax deals should tuck their tails between their legs and be happy about it. I don't care what people get paid in random places, it has absolutley no relevance other than govs should not allow a company to profit in their country if it is not offering competitive salarie…

As someone who lives in a low-cost-of-living place, and who occasionally contracts to US companies, let me phrase it this way. I'm very happy with $x. I don't really care what a SV person gets. Thats irrelevant to me and makes zero impact on my standard if living. If $x is smaller than a US salary then the employer is happy too. Once employers figure out your job can be done remotely (something the WFH cohort are ben…

I completley understand and support your position. That's why companies can't easily do global remote, outsourcing is not exactly a new concept in tech. These companies are playing capitalism but the people buying their shit aren't. Companies exist to benefit people, people don't exist to benefit companies, that's why every country has labor laws to protect its people from greedy companies, but if a greedy company benefits you for the time being, enjoy! But keep in mind, the salary they pay offshore is funded by taxes and income onshore. The problem really is US empoloyment law here.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#184

Post by drakonka »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #138
drakonka wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's anything like Sweden, working as a permanent employee for a company in the Netherlands with that salary also gets you relatively high job security, pension contributions, 6-8 weeks off a year, unlimited sick leave, sometimes a collective agreement with guaranteed pay bumps or bonuses, often additional wellness allowances, etc. Some companies employ through a local entity which gets you some or all of those sa…

Side question: Do people typically get to use all those weeks off? I get 5 weeks off, but it's incredibly difficult to still hit my deadlines if I take any days off.

It took me a while to get into the habit when I first moved to Sweden, but after a couple of years I did start using all my weeks. Having a really long (4-5 week) summer vacation really really helps with recharge and coming back more fresh and productive. Some people do end up with days rolled over into next year, but there's a limit to that accumulation after a few years, so if that's happening eventually managers and leads strongly encourage you to use more of those days.

As for deadlines, that's up to the company and project management to plan for. When I first joined a Swedish company and sat in a technical planning meeting I wondered why July was completely grayed out on our shared calendar, and was promptly told that almost nobody would be here because that's the most popular summer vacation time.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#185

Post by trianx »

mindondrugs wrote: post #11

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

I think this website's numbers are way too low for Spain and other EU countries, similarly to how their 76k $ average software developer salary for the US seems too low: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Developer/...

They likely have a different definition for software developer than myself.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#186

Post by shrikant »

mmarq wrote: post #149
shrikant wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah Spain salaries aren't great for devs even by the UK's standards, but GP's numbers seem way too low. About 4 years back I didn't bother proceeding with a couple of (well, two) mid-level engineering positions based out of Barcelona because they paid too low (about €55,000) compared to what I could get in the UK for an equivalent role. One of them was for King, who was still raking it in then, and I can't remember…

Today a dev in Barcelona makes as much as a dev in London or slightly less. Considering the cost of living and the quality of life, the dev in Barcelona gets much much more. Among my friends and acquaintances, I’m currently witnessing an exodus from the UK, with people moving to Spain, France, the Netherlands and Germany.

Agreed on all points you make btw. If I had to contend with the rental market, and didn't already have much of a senior-ish network here in London which is currently keeping my pay well above what I can get anyplace else in the world (except the US), I'd be upping sticks as well.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#187

Post by thiht »

bruce511 wrote: post #176
mpeg wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it wrong? Assuming he refers to top talent, $50-80k isn’t enough to get anyone. You’d hardly be able to hire a top developer in Southeast Asia for this kind of money No one is taking about average employees

I don't know about Portugsl or Spain, but $50k would put uou into "wildest dreams" category in a Lot of countries. And you'd be surprised at how much exceptional talent is out there. Apparently with 8 billion people to choose from the supply pool gets a lot bigger than those who live in very expensive cities. Luckily wfh means companies are much more likely to hire remote workers now. Well lucky for folks like me any…

I'm in France, we have a slightly higher income than Portugal and Spain (less now than in the past I think but still), and even there 50k€ is a very good salary. 80k€ puts you in the top 3% in France (2023, for salaries).

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#188

Post by mettamage »

oezi wrote: post #48
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go?

I think many Europeans can't imagine moving to the US (higher work load, less social safety, higher violence) and employers well know it and can keep salaries depressed.

I can’t just move to the US. I’ve applied around 100 times and only brilliant.org replied and gave me an interview. All the other companies stated that Europeans don’t have permission to work in the US (and it wasn’t stated anywhere)

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#189

Post by cpach »

june_twenty wrote: post #158
oezi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many Europeans can't imagine moving to the US (higher work load, less social safety, higher violence) and employers well know it and can keep salaries depressed.

I would move to the USA if I could. As a European is that possible - e.g. don't you need a green card?

AFAIK the easiest way is to start working in EU for a company that has offices in US. Then you can transfer.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#190

Post by codegeek »

JB_Dev wrote: post #167
codegeek wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pay for COBRA" Yes but COBRA can cost upto 102% of the cost which was mostly covered by your employer before. Now that you are laid off, you have to pay the whole thing (sometimes employers are nice to still cover when they lay you off but mostly they don't). For a family of 4, it can easily be $2500/Month depending on the state you live in.

You missed this critical part “you easily make enough money to…” If you are making >$250K year, an extra $2500/month is not a significant bump. Especially as it is temporary while you are between jobs. Temporary could even be a year or longer. Factor that cost into your emergency savings and draw down when you need to. You still end up massively ahead of a developer outside the US. I am not endorsing the US system -…

I don't know. I am a very idealistic person when it comes to spending money. I hate spending even $5 on what I think is extortion and bullying which is what the healthcare costs in US are. I am privileged enough to be able to afford it but still don't like it and would do anything to get rid of it.
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