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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#121

Post by reaperman »

kaba0 wrote: post #114
reaperman wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the majority of Amos (fasterthanlime), Raph Levien, Ashley Williams, Carol Nichols and Steve Klabnik throw their weight behind any fork of Rust, then that’s where I’m putting my energy too. I believe they’re hugely responsible for most of the adoption of Rust and have no doubt they’d see continued success anywhere they choose.

> If the majority of Amos (fasterthanlime), Raph Levien, Ashley Williams, Carol Nichols and Steve Klabnik throw their weight behind any fork of Rust But they quite dislike this fork, don’t they?

Ashley Williams comments were sympathetic but unsupportive. I haven’t heard anything from the others.

Based on Ashley’s comments, I think the HN community has really overreacted to this story and treated it as something much bigger than it is. Im not sure there’s anyone at all notable involved with the “crab” fork.

I haven’t looked into it much though, someone may correct me. Overall though, I’m not sure this is worthy of our attention.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#122

Post by arp242 »

pietro72ohboy wrote: post #66
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

> That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. Could you elaborate on because I'm increasingly seeing Stallman being thrown around as a bogeyman who impeded FOSS progress for years if not decades and I really dislike this trend. It seems that his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity is being conflated with his contributions to FOSS. I will preface this by noting that this is "my belief…

I wrote about this a few years ago in [1]. I think some of the more recent personal attacks have been unfair and misguided, but criticism of Stallman goes back decades. Why does X use the MIT license and not GPL? Because they found Stallman too difficult to talk to (see quote in the article). Many prominent people involved in Free Software have been at odds with Stallman for a long time. When I first heard of Stallman in an interview sometime in the early 2000s I compared him to Osama Bin Laden in terms of extremism, which was a mean and wrong thing to do and I'm sorry I did that (I was young...), but it's indicative of the kind of responses he's evoked for a long time. Some of his ideas are good, but many are also silly, and some downright misguided.

You can have good ideas and be a bad leader of a movement. These two things are not mutually exclusive. A wiser and less ego-centric Stallman would have stepped back decades ago.

[1]: https://www.arp242.net/rms.html

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#124

Post by jakear »

threatofrain wrote: post #113
jakear wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think any of the folks who are part of it are language designers Ugh. Hate this sentiment that some people are language designers, and others simply aren't . So pretentious. If someone is designing a language they're a language designer, they don't need your approval. And yes, designing the distribution, branding, community, and leadership around a fork of an existing language counts as designing a language…

The fundamental critique here is that a language effort needs technical credibility to attract a critical mass of contributors, even if the effort is solely for leverage. Arguing that a CEO is technically a designer because they make decisions on branding and leadership is an evasive dodge in the form of a critique. At some point in the creation of a restaurant one may wish to inquire on the chef leading the kitchen…

I don't think they do need technical credibility to "prove" themselves as a fork.

If it were the case that all was well in Zion and nobody had any desire to leave Rust, then sure this would need to make a compelling argument on technical grounds. But that's miles from the truth: a large number of folks involved in Rust have wanted to leave it, and not on technical grounds. If this is the fork that can attract people who have technical chops but don't want to deal with the Rust bureaucrats, good on them. The progress made so far in splitting off while maintaining upstream compatibility seems genuine and nontrivial.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#125

Post by commitpizza »

sharikous wrote: post #96
commitpizza wrote: post #81

Here is a good walk-through of the changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutR_LNoZw0 I don't particularly care about Rust but one of the reasons I've hesitated to learn / use it was because the project seemed like it was led by woke people that pushed politics into the programming space which imo is completely unnecessary. One thing I've learned by experience is that people who push their political agenda into eve…

Honestly how much does their political stance affect your work? Using a programming language is 99.9% technical work. As long as they don't go out of their way e.g. to make rustc compile your project wrong if you have files with political content with opposing orientation on your computer, how does any of that matter?

> Honestly how much does their political stance affect your work?

Since I do not use Rust, not at all. But if I were this policy would affect me. For example, I had a domain with "rust" in it. I let it expire, since I decided not to use Rust which now seems like a great choice. I am also soon going to be a gun owner. Also, if I were to use Rust I would probably join a user group now required to adopt their CoC and a bunch of other things.

The main issue with people pusing politics in programming is a sign of a possibly unstable project since in my experience and by looking at the trademark policy it appears it was completely right. Restricting speech and adding a gun policy is just wtf. It is a clear indication that the project is run by people that have very specific political agendas that they're trying to push onto a programming project that has nothing to do with them.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#126

Post by oefrha »

sharikous wrote: post #96
commitpizza wrote: post #81

Here is a good walk-through of the changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutR_LNoZw0 I don't particularly care about Rust but one of the reasons I've hesitated to learn / use it was because the project seemed like it was led by woke people that pushed politics into the programming space which imo is completely unnecessary. One thing I've learned by experience is that people who push their political agenda into eve…

Honestly how much does their political stance affect your work? Using a programming language is 99.9% technical work. As long as they don't go out of their way e.g. to make rustc compile your project wrong if you have files with political content with opposing orientation on your computer, how does any of that matter?

It shouldn’t be a problem if you just use the language. It does become something you should be mindful of if you want to get more involved, e.g. contribute to core, maintain high profile libraries, give talks at conferences, etc.

As a team member of another high profile project, I have had the pleasure of being accused (thankfully privately) of being intolerant towards trans people because I was very vocal about a change breaking backwards compatibility. Apparently the person behind the change is trans; I only learned about that when I was accused. A decade into woke politics I still have no idea why I should give a single shit about which bathroom they go in or who they choose to sleep with or whatever. But some people won’t hesitate to weaponize this crap when given the chance, and disappointingly, they can often amass a big cheering crowd, or should I say lynching mob.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#127

Post by zajio1am »

codeflo wrote: post #102
pietro72ohboy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. Could you elaborate on because I'm increasingly seeing Stallman being thrown around as a bogeyman who impeded FOSS progress for years if not decades and I really dislike this trend. It seems that his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity is being conflated with his contributions to FOSS. I will preface this by noting that this is "my belief…

> his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity Oh wow. That's some downplaying of the actual issue, which I won't make explicit because it's absolutely disgusting. The guy made himself and his foundation untouchable for anyone with a reputation to lose, leading to a lot of effort going into "de-GNU-ification" of technology stacks. > Stallman has been a positive force It's very hard to make this kind o…

> leading to a lot of effort going into "de-GNU-ification" of technology stacks.

De-GNU-ification was mostly about GPLv3, not Stallman. Some of this was pushed by Apple, so they can use free software without copyleft requirements.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#128

Post by johnisgood »

pietro72ohboy wrote: post #66
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

> That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. Could you elaborate on because I'm increasingly seeing Stallman being thrown around as a bogeyman who impeded FOSS progress for years if not decades and I really dislike this trend. It seems that his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity is being conflated with his contributions to FOSS. I will preface this by noting that this is "my belief…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36108633 [1]

Guess who's the common denominator here? Yup. JeanHeyd. Such a small world.

[1] https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235124.html

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#129

Post by yarg »

colesantiago wrote: post #49
chrisco255 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked for io.js when they split off from node.js. When io.js was re-merged in with node, the project was all the better for it. They ultimately improved Node's release schedule and cadence, governance, etc.

does the io.js fork still exist? If it is merged back into the main project or left unmaintained the fork failed and died.

If the primary goals behind the fork were achieved, to say that it failed and died (when it was actually reintegrated) is far from an accurate claim.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#130

Post by jakear »

unconed wrote: post #116
kaba0 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with his contributions to FOSS It is not as noteworthy as well known his name is. Especially if you count how many have stopped working on open-source projects because of him.

Can you name a few of these luminaries to see what we've lost? Most of what I've heard about Stallman are social attacks from autistic mean girls with zero self awareness. Edit: FYI, people have flagged my follow up comment where I address the request for clarification to make it look like there is none. Just turn on showdead in your HN options to see. This is exactly the kind of playbook they love to use. Manipulati…

Quite extreme words to provide no reference supporting them.
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