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Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

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Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#391

Post by zeroonetwothree »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #67

Even if it weren't a terrible, awful idea from a democratic point of view, it's just silly from a logistic point of view. This means you create a single point of failure for your entire society: electricity provision. Got a power shot down? Suddenly nobody can buy anything. Got a war on your territory? Your trade routes will get destroyed 4 times faster. Want to be a reserve currency? Guess what, now you have to do l…

Stores used to process card payments before they had digital registers. So it’s not required. And now I suspect even cash won’t work without power.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#392

Post by rsaesha »

lazide wrote: post #351
rsaesha wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brother fckn nazis taking the government is a much bigger systemic problem that no financial system can protect against. The system works if democracy works. If we lose democracy, of course, the blocks built on top of it would crumble. That does not means everyone should stop building on top of democracy. Even more so for things that makes the life of the people better.

No, making it so you can’t buy anything without the gov’ts permission makes it not only more tempting for someone like Nazi’s to take over, but also much more effective for them to keep it and far more damaging when they’re in. Germany is a strongly ‘cash’ society partially because of this, but also because of what the Stasi did to East Germany. You really don’t want the folks in power to have even more of that kind…

A central payment system is absolutely not a tool of oppression. Case in point: don't like it? Don't use it. People are still free to not use it just like it even didn't exist. For everyone that chooses to, there is now an instant and free payment method. Where is the oppression?

In your hypothetical scenario of nazis taking the gov, lets assume there is no central database. Nazis would go: ok banks give me your databases or else. Banks gives databases because they care about money. There, now nazi have central database. And in this scenario you have deprived the people of enjoying a really nice service.

Where is the win here I don't see it. Let's not do good thing because, oh, in a doomsday scenario good thing might be bad. Like, shouldn't we channel efforts in ensuring doomsday never comes to reality in the first place? This way we all enjoy good life with ever improving services.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#393

Post by dragonwriter »

politician wrote: post #272
jameshart wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's presumably a lot of evidence of this you can point to...?

Read about J. Edgar Hoover.

The constraints and incentives for agencies like the FBI have changed a lot since Hoover (in no small part due to the abuses under Hoover.)

“Read about J. Edgar Hoover” is a handwave, rather than an argument, and its made worse when it supposed to support a position on the current state of affairs.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#394

Post by courseofaction »

jameshart wrote: post #317
shishy wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interpreted it more as “it’s a trail of information that could be used against you” instead of literally, but I could be wrong

If you look at the recent history of scandals that have had zero to negative reputational impact on politicians and public figures in Western democracies - we’re talking Access Hollywood , tax fraud, undeclared gifts, gross nepotism, punching journalists, flouting public health laws, sexual impropriety, lying about your career and life story, mishandling of classified information, and just plain incompetence - what o…

A resourced adversary relentlessly publicizing them?

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#395

Post by friend_and_foe »

medler wrote: post #134
harimau777 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the government often creates crimes that citizens don't agree with. Or the majority uses the law to try to force their preferences on the minority.

So should everyone simply disregard any laws they disagree with, provided they can get away with it? Where does it end?

Yes.

It ends where someone else's rights begin.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#396

Post by crazygringo »

hospitalhusband wrote: post #73
cschneid wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure on the fees part of that - cash handling itself is expensive, both for direct reasons, and anti-theft reasons. Anywhere from time spent counting drawers to full-on armored car service. All of that is expensive, and not present when credit cards are used (and conversely, a network fee doesn't exist on cash). I think all payment methods end up with some costs to them.

Chargebacks and processing fees are expensive too.

Processing fees aren't inherently expensively. They're low in Europe, and high in the US only because they go to rewards programs. You're paying 2% more but getting 2% back. Legislation could easily regulate them to eliminate rewards programs and bring them back down low.

Chargebacks are supposed to be expensive because they're a deterrent to businesses acting in ways that will lead customers to attempt chargebacks. And then they usually have an element of manual review which costs $ as well. Chargebacks being expensive is a feature not a bug. And they're an easy consumer protection option that isn't even a possibility with cash.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#397

Post by jevgeni »

AlbertCory wrote: post #373
colinsane wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if the payment processor knew the transaction was for a contract killing but processed it anyway, would they not be facilitating a crime (“aiding and abetting”)? are you saying we should specifically exempt payment processors from being held responsible for crimes that the rest of us — or any other business — could be found guilty of when performing the same functions? or are you suggesting something more broad: that…

This ignores all the justifications that the other commenters have laid out. You are not "aiding and abetting" by handling the money. There's already a well-established body of law outlining who is and is not culpable for a crime. We don't need to debate it from first principles here.

Remind the rest of the class please.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#398

Post by friend_and_foe »

jupp0r wrote: post #237

I understand and agree with the arguments for cash as an option. On the other hand, I think it's completely irrelevant if nobody is using it. I'm in my 30s and literally nobody uses cash among my friends. Is this debate even relevant?

Not among your friends.

I use cash for every single in person transaction I do, and only use a card for Amazon and whatever other online things o buy every so often.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#399

Post by lazide »

rsaesha wrote: post #392
lazide wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, making it so you can’t buy anything without the gov’ts permission makes it not only more tempting for someone like Nazi’s to take over, but also much more effective for them to keep it and far more damaging when they’re in. Germany is a strongly ‘cash’ society partially because of this, but also because of what the Stasi did to East Germany. You really don’t want the folks in power to have even more of that kind…

A central payment system is absolutely not a tool of oppression. Case in point: don't like it? Don't use it. People are still free to not use it just like it even didn't exist. For everyone that chooses to, there is now an instant and free payment method. Where is the oppression? In your hypothetical scenario of nazis taking the gov, lets assume there is no central database. Nazis would go: ok banks give me your data…

This is getting even more fantastical by the moment.

I’m also pointing out not-that distant past events, and you’re also just completely ignoring them.

Good luck! Just don’t do it in my economy.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#400

Post by jevgeni »

FateOfNations wrote: post #355
colinsane wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if the payment processor knew the transaction was for a contract killing but processed it anyway, would they not be facilitating a crime (“aiding and abetting”)? are you saying we should specifically exempt payment processors from being held responsible for crimes that the rest of us — or any other business — could be found guilty of when performing the same functions? or are you suggesting something more broad: that…

If they knew the payment was for a contract killing, they should be picking up the phone and calling law enforcement. This isn’t even about individual transactions. The situation here is more like them saying, “your business has characteristics in common with the kind of a business that might facilitate a contract killing and we’re lazy so we just aren’t going to do any business with you at all”.

The knots HN ties itself into bashing "EU regulations", but then easily deciding to impose arbitrary regulations on payment companies is a sight to behold.
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