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Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

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Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#61
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a cost to handling cash too. Don't know how it compares to cards but with the latter you don't need to have fleets of armored trucks to move money around and robbers can only steal stock.

The cost is not so much about paying armored trucks, but most banks don't want to deal with small businesses that deal with cash.

In the UK the banks are happy to deal with businesses paying cash, but there are fees, and if your holding cash on premises then you’ll need insurance, which means you’ll need a safe…

The reason supermarkets offered cash back was that this allowed them to massively reduce the amount of cash held on site and thus reduce their insurance costs.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you…

are you suggesting that the serial number of every note you withdraw is registered against your account?

If the bank teller counts out the cash from a drawer and hands it to you, no. If he runs it through a counting machine, or you get the cash from an ATM, maybe?

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it mostly crime related shenanigans? Not having to carry a wallet anymore. Never going to the ATM. No need to pocket loose change. Quicker checkout times.

Are these really inconveniences? Most of the times I've had trouble paying for stuff were usually at supermarkets or gas stations where the credit card reader would refuse to acknowledge my card. Swiping/inserting/touching, not even cursing worked so without cash on hand I'd have had to surrender my ID to the clerk, take a cab to the closest ATM and return with cash.

Yes. I cannot stand cash, I hate carrying it, I hate coins, I don’t want to keep up with it. I leave my house with nothing but my phone and I’m good.

I don’t have a wallet, and I don’t want one. I want efficient and secure digital currency, with easy interfaces between digital wallets. I pay for my lawn care via Cash App, most of the other small businesses have Square or something similar.

If I need anonymous currency, I will convert to crypto and then convert once or twice more across different coins. It’s good enough for my use.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#64
post #10

Cash is great. Can't be tracked, credit card companies don't get to discriminate against the poor and create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of, it's easier to be financially responsible with it. Bit unfortunate too that paying with cash just adds a tax onto the poor since the fees are basically priced into goods sold at stores, typically regardless of whether or not cash is used. But yeah, nice to h…

There is a cost to handling cash too. Don't know how it compares to cards but with the latter you don't need to have fleets of armored trucks to move money around and robbers can only steal stock.

This is so much cheaper per dollar than people think. Certainly cheaper than credit card fees once you're over a certain volume, unless you are in a very high-crime area. Even then, thieves will often steal off the shelves instead of out of the cash register because that's a much smaller crime. Small businesses get the short end of the stick on cash management, again, because they may not be.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#65
post #10

Cash is great. Can't be tracked, credit card companies don't get to discriminate against the poor and create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of, it's easier to be financially responsible with it. Bit unfortunate too that paying with cash just adds a tax onto the poor since the fees are basically priced into goods sold at stores, typically regardless of whether or not cash is used. But yeah, nice to h…

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you…

> each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it

This isn't quite what you meant, but 20-ish years ago there was some crowd-tracking of Euro-bills.

The Euro was pretty new and people were excited about their banknotes showing up in other countries. Some people created a website where you could enter the serial number of your bills. Each serial number would have a tracking page in which places it showed up. It felt kinda cool to find a bill in your wallet that had visited a few other countries.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#66

The primary benefit of cashless is pretty much just the ability to be lazy. You swipe a card in a reader instead of having to count out cash. That's the major benefit. All things being equal, sure, it's more convenient. But all things are not equal; in my opinion the potential negatives that others in the thread have listed overwhelmingly outweigh the ability to be more lazy. That so many people have the desire to di…

The fact that getting mugged is so uncommon these days shows how naive this comment is to the second and third order effects of a cashless society.

I think cash should always be an option, but I don’t pretend that cards haven’t dramatically improved our lives.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#67
Even if it weren't a terrible, awful idea from a democratic point of view, it's just silly from a logistic point of view.

This means you create a single point of failure for your entire society: electricity provision.

Got a power shot down? Suddenly nobody can buy anything.

Got a war on your territory? Your trade routes will get destroyed 4 times faster.

Want to be a reserve currency? Guess what, now you have to do like China and have 2 currencies cause the rest of the world uses cash.

And congrats, a cyber attack can now hurt your economy.

Hope nothing in 70000 years of history won't repeat itself cause you are now going down next time something goes wrong.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#68
Something often not spoken about (as the discussion often focuses on privacy and "power") is the price.

As someone who uses card for most payments (maybe paying in cash a couple of times a year), cash is expensive to use. It requires time out of my routine to take the cash out, unless I can take out an exact amount there I'm then left with change, and then because I don't want the change I normally spend it on things I don't need. If cash in another currency that's very expensive as I have to pay to convert the small amount. On the other hand cards are effectively free to me, even paying in other currencies. I travel a lot and never use local cash.

However, for many people, the reverse is true. If your cash flow is primary in actual cash, then paying into an account can be annoying or even cost money, current accounts without sufficient funds in them often charge a fee (in the UK current accounts, checking accounts?, are typically "free"), some users can't even hold a real bank account and are forced to use pseudo-bank-accounts based on prepaid cards with exorbitant fees, and cash could be argued to subsidise card fees (which are rare in the UK).

I hope that for the foreseeable future both options are accepted at the majority of places. I'm never going to take cash out for a truly discretionary purchase so only accepting cash limits the market, and some people are rarely going to have a card they can use at card-only merchants.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#69

The primary benefit of cashless is pretty much just the ability to be lazy. You swipe a card in a reader instead of having to count out cash. That's the major benefit. All things being equal, sure, it's more convenient. But all things are not equal; in my opinion the potential negatives that others in the thread have listed overwhelmingly outweigh the ability to be more lazy. That so many people have the desire to di…

> The primary benefit of cashless is pretty much just the ability to be lazy.

By this logic, the primary benefit of just about every technological development in human history is the ability to be lazy. The wheel is just a crutch for those too lazy to drag their loads on sleds.

The downsides of a cashless marketplace are indisputable, but “laziness” is a reductive view of the upsides.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#70
post #36

On a recent trip to Europe I didn't take out cash once over 3 weeks across 3 countries. I brought 50 euros with me and that was all I needed! Everything else was just a quick tap of the phone, including every metro system outside of Paris. My only hesitation to getting rid of cash entirely - how will I buy drugs? I don't gamble illegally or pay for sex, but I imagine those services would also struggle in an increasin…

If the only argument against getting rid of cash is that it would make it harder to commit crimes, that sounds like a good reason to get rid of cash. I like cash because I like my privacy but cash making it easier to do crime is an unfortunate side effect, not an end in itself.

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