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Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

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Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#51

Post by mhh__ »

jjgreen wrote: post #3

"Paper money" is such a strange expression to use here: it's inaccurate (because coins) and much longer than the obvious word, cash.

"cash" in your pocket is central bank money. Current president keeps the dead presidents good (in theory). In the bank it is merely a promise of money.

Cash can (arguably) mean paper money but there is often a distinction made in capital markets - physical cash is for retail banks.

An applied example of a cash position in finance is repo: You need some short term cash - a simple hack financial markets use to do this in an administrative/credit efficient way is to simply sell (say) a bond (the collateral), receive some money (your cash), then agree to buy the bond back tomorrow for slightly more than you sold it for (the interest rate).

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#52

Post by mrtranscendence »

Animatronio wrote: post #27
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it mostly crime related shenanigans? Not having to carry a wallet anymore. Never going to the ATM. No need to pocket loose change. Quicker checkout times.

Are these really inconveniences? Most of the times I've had trouble paying for stuff were usually at supermarkets or gas stations where the credit card reader would refuse to acknowledge my card. Swiping/inserting/touching, not even cursing worked so without cash on hand I'd have had to surrender my ID to the clerk, take a cab to the closest ATM and return with cash.

I was an early adopter of (debit) card only, using it for everything in 1999. Your experience has never happened to me, as far as I recall. I don’t think I’ve ever had to go to an atm because the reader didn’t work.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#53

Post by endingworld »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #11
standardUser wrote: post #9

On a recent trip to Europe I didn't take out cash once over 3 weeks across 3 countries. I brought 50 euros with me and that was all I needed! Everything else was just a quick tap of the phone, including every metro system outside of Paris. My only hesitation to getting rid of cash entirely - how will I buy drugs? I don't gamble illegally or pay for sex, but I imagine those services would also struggle in an increasin…

The absence of cash should terrify anyone. So ridiculously easy to quash any dissidents if you can cut off their ability to buy anything with a single click of a button. I don't use much cash at all but if my government was planning on ending all cash, I'd go out and buy a bunch of precious metals. Can't trust my basic freedom with Visa and Paypal.

[flagged]

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#54

Post by raincom »

3pt14159 wrote: post #29
shishy wrote: post #10

Cash is great. Can't be tracked, credit card companies don't get to discriminate against the poor and create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of, it's easier to be financially responsible with it. Bit unfortunate too that paying with cash just adds a tax onto the poor since the fees are basically priced into goods sold at stores, typically regardless of whether or not cash is used. But yeah, nice to h…

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you…

That lady's book is super expensive: https://www.amazon.com/Illicit-Money-Financing-Terrorism-Twe...

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#55

Post by Animats »

I've been using cash more due to the proliferation of sluggish, badly engineered, or dark-pattern point of sale systems.

There are two eateries across the street from each other near me. At both, you go to the counter and order, and they later bring food out. The first has a good system, from Stripe. Big, clear, uncluttered screen facing the customer, with the amount the biggest thing on the screen. When the system is ready to read the contactless card, the contactless card logo lights up, above the screen. The reader always reads the card once it's within about 1cm of the reader. The display immediately changes, by a smooth horizontal scroll, to a tip screen, which needs only one touch on a screen that senses the touch without difficulty. One more smooth horizontal scroll, with receipt options and a big "you are customer #5" display. One more touch and you're done. If I select "Paper receipt", the receipt prints within 2 seconds, and I tear it off and take it. Done.

I'll use a credit card there.

Across the street, another place has a Veriphone systems. This one is much more sluggish. There's no unambiguous indication of when the system is ready to accept a card. The contactless card reader is separate from the customer display screen. Sometimes, when the display indicates it's ready, it isn't. Or it may take several tries before it accepts the card. This is probably "hosted POS", where the POS terminal is a dumb web client and has to wait for an overloaded server for each step in the transaction.

Then the display wants a signature. There's no pen, and a finger touch won't work. Writing with a fingernail is necessary. Then the clerk has to ask if you want a receipt, and they have to do some data entry to get one printed.

I pay cash there.

Walgreens and CVS are even worse. Half the small screen is full of ads. There are asks for phone number, stuff about "reward points", readers that seem to be out of sync with the screen, and printed receipts two feet long, full of ads.

It's easier to order on Amazon rather than go there.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#56

Post by londons_explore »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17
Seattle3503 wrote: post #13

My concerns about a cashless society are the power it hands to a few oligopolistic credit card processors. Look at what happened to Pornhub. Regardless of whether you think Pornhub was in the wrong, it is striking that a business was cut off from global financial system by a small number of credit card companies. This was done without due process and under no countries laws. That should scare us at least a little.

How could a website function with cash payments at all?

If you visit Georgia (the country, not the state), they have a cool system for cash payments to websites.

You go on the website, order your stuff. When the normal payment screen that comes up, instead of Mastercard or visa, you choose "Cash". You'll then be sent a text message with a number (or the number appears on the screen if you don't have a phone). You go to any ATM anywhere in the country, put that number into the ATM, feed the cash into the coin and note slot, and then your goods will be ordered.

The same system is used for paying taxes in cash, utility bills in cash, etc.

They can do refunds in cash using the same system.

You do pay a fairly hefty (10% if I remember correctly) fee for using that service though.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#57

Post by greyface- »

permo-w wrote: post #40
3pt14159 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you…

are you suggesting that the serial number of every note you withdraw is registered against your account?

Modern ATM bill acceptors have sensors that can read serial numbers off of bills. I don't know whether it's been publicly stated that this occurs (and don't have any relevant personal knowledge, either), but the capability exists in the field.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#58

Post by cschneid »

shishy wrote: post #10

Cash is great. Can't be tracked, credit card companies don't get to discriminate against the poor and create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of, it's easier to be financially responsible with it. Bit unfortunate too that paying with cash just adds a tax onto the poor since the fees are basically priced into goods sold at stores, typically regardless of whether or not cash is used. But yeah, nice to h…

Not sure on the fees part of that - cash handling itself is expensive, both for direct reasons, and anti-theft reasons. Anywhere from time spent counting drawers to full-on armored car service. All of that is expensive, and not present when credit cards are used (and conversely, a network fee doesn't exist on cash). I think all payment methods end up with some costs to them.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#59

Post by walterbell »

permo-w wrote: post #40
3pt14159 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you…

are you suggesting that the serial number of every note you withdraw is registered against your account?

Technology exists. Policy will vary.

https://www.amazon.com/NUCOUN-VC-7-Denomination-Counterfeit-...

> Money Counter Machine with CIS Technology: Equipped with one pair 200DPI Contact Image Sensors, scan and detect each counted bill like human eyes.. counts the quantity, reads the denomination and currency type, calculate the total amount at one time pass. Turn on serial number reading function to record serial number and all the counting details can be printed directly or exported to PC , very helpful for money tracking and management.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#60

Post by nirvdrum »

permo-w wrote: post #40
3pt14159 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you…

are you suggesting that the serial number of every note you withdraw is registered against your account?

It looks to me like there's two different notions of cash tracking being discussed. One is tracking individual bills and the other is tracking transactions that involve exchanging goods or services for cash.
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