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Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

economist.com

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Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#131

Post by [deleted] »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #127
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These programs are always privately run, with the idea that some homeless people are only homeless because they are in the wrong city and they actually have housing available to them somewhere else. But the program has been abused by many who just want a free bus ticket, and don’t have family willing to take them in at the other end. Private programs in conservative states do this as well. Prisons in Texas will give…

San Francisco's Homeward Bound program is run by the Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing. Obviously not privately run.

[deleted]

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#132

Post by maxerickson »

thriftwy wrote: post #77
truckerbill wrote: post #42

Housing shouldn't be an investment vehicle. It seems pretty obvious but no-one wants to give up their imaginary number. (Imaginary because most people have 1 or fewer houses and will always need to live somewhere, so they can't spend the paper value of their home). The cost of rent feeds into everything, its such a clear drain on everyone's resources (apart from landlords). If you have time to give, please think abou…

Perhaps housing was always an investment vehicle. St. Petersburg is full of 4-5 storey buildings, initially with apartments for rent, most of whose were built to provide {Surname} with a stable income in the old age.

Short of going all the way to banning private ownership of housing, there will always be an investment aspect to a significant financial asset like a house.

So if you are going to have private ownership of housing, the question is more about how policies should be structured. Should policy favor home ownership, should policy focus on housing affordability, etc.

People complaining about treating housing as an investment vehicle are often referring to policy choices in the US that treat home ownership as a good result in itself, regardless of the impact on affordability. So we have things like long term mortgages backed by quasi-government entities or local policy choices that focus on maintaining real estate prices (vs things like quality, availability and affordability).

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#133

Post by seanmcdirmid »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #127
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These programs are always privately run, with the idea that some homeless people are only homeless because they are in the wrong city and they actually have housing available to them somewhere else. But the program has been abused by many who just want a free bus ticket, and don’t have family willing to take them in at the other end. Private programs in conservative states do this as well. Prisons in Texas will give…

San Francisco's Homeward Bound program is run by the Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing. Obviously not privately run.

Ok, wow, 183 people in 2022. Consider me corrected. At least they aren’t giving them open bus tickets.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#134

Post by naillo »

kakapo88 wrote: post #97
naillo wrote: post #44

[deleted]

SF Techie here. Lived and worked here, for many years. Every day I literally step over bodies to get to work. Drugs are openly dealt and consumed. Mentally ill people roam the streets, screaming. People openly use the sidewalks as a toilet. Crime is rampant. And if anyone doubts it's that bad, I invite you to come and look for yourself. Almost all of these people come from elsewhere in the country. They aren't "price…

Mandatory treatment for mental illness is incredibly cruel in my opinion

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#135

Post by avree »

“San Francisco has had what felt like an endless, year-after-year boom,” says Aaron Peskin, president of the Board of Supervisors, the city council. “And now the bubble really burst.”

Years of policies that hurt honest people, entrenched landlords and those already here, and made it difficult for new families and groups to come to the city are why the good times are ending. People like Peskin burst the bubble.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#136

Post by arp242 »

PaulHoule wrote: post #110
mschuster91 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the entire US has zero idea what to do with homeless and mentally ill people, other than "dispersing" them or locking them up. As a result, some (particulary Republican) regions give them one way bus tickets to other (particularly Democrat) regions or deport them outright in sometimes very public stunts - out of sight, out of mind and if it deters others all the better, seems to be the general con…

We've got zero idea how to repair broken brains. People with severe mental illness are hard to live with. When I was growing up there was a homeless man who spent all day at the public library that people called "The Professor" who was said to be unable to live indoors because he'd wake up screaming every night. We took in a friend who I think had schizoaffective disorder in and she threatened my wife with a knife af…

There are certainly homeless people with serious mental illnesses, but from my experience with talking to homeless people on the street this is not most homeless people. They just fell by the wayside for one reason or the other, and once you're in that position it can be hard to get out – hard to plan for the future if you're worried about getting enough food for today (and/or enough drugs or alcohol) and the situation just seems hopeless.

Looking at SF specifically, the causes seem to be "job loss (26%), alcohol/drug use (18%), eviction (13%), argument/asked to leave by friend/family (12%), mental health issues (8%), and divorce/separation (5%)".

One thing that seemed to have worked in London a few years ago is to give people a bank account with £3,000 with no strings or obligations attached.[1] While the pilot was small (13 people) and time period relatively short (1 year), the results were promising. I seem to recall it's been tried elsewhere too, but I can't find the report on that right now.

Turns out that just giving people a chance and autonomy goes a long way. Unfortunately "free money for homeless people" is politically difficult, even though the alternative is far more expensive.

[1]: https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/providing-personalised-support...

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#137

Post by throwaway6734 »

hotpotamus wrote: post #89
throwaway6734 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. One party rule is bad. The failurs of the GOP to put up viable local candidates in SF and the the Democrats in deep red states are not good for the health of the country

I used to hear conservatives lament that large cities were unwinnable for Republican candidate, and these days I don't even hear that; it seems that they just accept it as a law of nature that they will be governed by Democrats. And as an example, Jacksonville, Florida just flipped that way. And I wonder - what would Republicans offer a city? My assumption is that they'd just blow a hole in any city budget with tax c…

> what would Republicans offer a city?

There are a lot of local policies that are in the vein of the traditional GOP politics (small govt, personal freedom, less regulation, etc.) that are very applicable to urban living but do cut against national GOP politics. If they could separate the local from the national they'd do great.

Some examples:

* Cutting land use regulations to encourage more housing development. Urban areas suffer from ridiculously high housing prices due to overburdensome regulation

* Give parents more input into how their children's education via school choice.

* Reduce red tape/bureaucracy for accomplishing things in cities like slow permitting processes and starting businesses

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#138

Post by seanmcdirmid »

phpisthebest wrote: post #129
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could always do what Finland does: admit that these people will never be productive members of society again and get them into housing with social workers on staff. Yes, it’s a constant drain, but Finland says it actually saves money doing it that way, since the services people use on the street turn out to be even more expensive. The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with home…

>>The big issue is that the USA doesn’t have a national strategy for dealing with homelessness. This is likely saying "the EU does not have strategy for dealing" remember the USA stands for "United STATES" States here is the key... We are 50 independent states, and most of our problems are because we look to the incompetent and corrupt federal government to solve problems they are not constitutional empowered to solv…

Finland is part of the EU and has a national strategy. While migration is easier between member countries, it isn’t unrestricted. You have to live in an EU country for some time before qualifying for welfare there, which means poor people can’t easily shop for the best social welfare. Finland doesn’t put its homeless in institutions, just in semi assisted living situations.

Homelessness is definitely a national problem. The fact that someone without housing from Great Falls Montana first winds up in Spokane and then Seattle should give you a clue. Yes, you can’t be homeless in great falls because you’ll die, so you move to a place where you’d at least survive with services and maybe better weather. Expecting the west coast cities to shoulder the nation’s homelessness burden is not just ludicrous, it is ultimately futile.

The premise is important in how the problem can be solved or not. If it’s a national problem and we treat it like a local problem, no solution can possibly work. If it is a local problem and we treat it like a national problem, likewise. Non-profits that count these things don’t do it very well, eg when they did the count in Seattle they found out 70% of its homeless population was from pioneer square (probably where they were counted), which is crazy if you know Seattle. We have a huge data problem which leads to bad solutions given wrong assumptions.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#139

Post by spaniard89277 »

agumonkey wrote: post #122
spaniard89277 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO urbanism plays a key role. Spanish cities are very dense, and until recently provided cheap housing with a mix of public-private developments. This isn't the case anymore (price wisw, still dense) and it's having effects on the social fabric.

And how does it manifest in dense cities ? I mean was it a very old tradition of spending time with others, that people kept along centuries ? Is it just sitting at a cafe ? or are there different ideas/rituals (sharing problem fixing, organizing cooking, etc) ?

It's easier to make friends and keep contact. What I've always been told by americans is that keeping in touch becomes difficult because everything is hoping in a car and spend a lot of time driving back and forth.

In my city it's 20 min walking max. In Madrid it's not that easy, but still. And it's walking.

Improvising plans with people is also easy because you don't have to plan ahead too much.

Re: Downtown San Francisco is at a tipping-point

#140

Post by spaniard89277 »

phpisthebest wrote: post #126
spaniard89277 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why other big cities in other continents have so few homeless compard to SF and LA? We do have people with mental problems here in Spain, but most don't roam the streets and end up living under a bridge. And I can assure you the Spanish institutions are not precisely brilliant dealing with problems.

I have no idea, but I suspect it is combination of factors. Let me ask, does Spain have and enforce loitering laws that prevent homeless of camping in front of businesses? Is this a factor in driving them to under the bridges instead of roaming the streets? Because CA prohibits the police from enforcing any of these laws, and many prosecutors refuse to charge anyone with "low level" crime. SF and LA (and CA in genera…

You can see homeless people in my mid-sized city. They typically sit in front of supermarkets or places where they can get money. It's always the same faces. If there's a law about that, it isn't being enforced.

Most of Spain has a weather similar to CA.

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