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Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

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Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#191
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, everyone talks about the GDPR but they don't actually read it. If you read it, it's really clear: if you're not sending information to third parties then it's exceptionally easy to be compliant. A lot of things are "to best effort" which puts the burden of proof on the prosecution that you were grossly negligent. There is a dedicated website to explaining the regulation for dummies; https://gdpr.eu --…

It's hilarious that you think standards like "best effort" are clear. The lawyers in your company are loud about it because you have no way to know if you're in compliance or not. You're just hoping you are. The whole concept of compliance doesn't even exist because GDPR says nothing, so at any moment something that sounds reasonable can be considered no longer in compliance and there's no way to predict this. A stan…

Best effort has a fairly precise legal definition:

The principles for satisfying “best efforts” standard have been enumerated as follows:

* "Best efforts" imposes a higher obligation than a legal "reasonable effort".

* "Best efforts" means taking, in good faith, all reasonable steps to achieve the objective, carrying the process to its logical conclusion and leaving no stone unturned. However, it does not require a party to sacrifice itself totally to the economic interests of the party to whom the duty is owed, although the interests of the other party must predominate.

* "Best efforts" includes doing everything known to be usual, necessary and proper for ensuring the success of the endeavour.

* The meaning of "best efforts" is, however, not boundless. It must be approached in the light of the particular contract, the parties to it and the contract's overall purpose as reflected in its language.

* While "best efforts" of the defendant must be subject to such overriding obligations as honesty and fair dealing, it is not necessary for the plaintiff to prove that the defendant acted in bad faith.

* Evidence of "inevitable failure" is relevant to the issue of causation of damage but not to the issue of liability. The onus to show that failure was inevitable regardless of whether the defendant made "best efforts" rests on the defendant.

* Evidence that the defendant, had it acted diligently, could have satisfied the "best efforts" test, is relevant evidence that the defendant did not use its best efforts.

Mere reasonable efforts will not suffice to meet the “best efforts” standard. Neither will occasional efforts made from time to time suffice. A higher level of effort is required.

Examples of situations where the standard was not met include:

* Contract for the purchase and sale of a house required the purchaser to obtain financing. Court found that the purchaser failed to do so because he applied for a loan for an inflated sum (by 60%), delayed the loan application, and that true reason for these actions was that the purchaser simply did not want to buy the property because he received a negative appraisal of it.

* Contract for the purchase and sale of land. The contract required the vendor use best efforts to obtain subdivision approvals. Obtaining approvals was also a condition precedent in the agreement, meaning that the parties could walk away from the transaction if the approvals were not obtained. The vendor hired an agent to obtain approvals, but the agent failed to advance the process. As time went on, the price of the land went up and the vendor notified the purchaser that it ought to be discharged from the obligation to close the transaction due to not receiving approvals. The Court found that the Vendors did not use best efforts. The court commented that to satisfy the standard, one must show progress, as well as reasonable and sensible response to roadblocks.

Examples of where the standard was met:

* An agreement to lease required tenants to obtain a business license to operate a car dealership on best-efforts basis. The tenants submitted an application within 3 days of signing the lease, did so accurately, but were told that the process would take significantly longer than anticipated. Best efforts standard was met.

Generally, there are more decisions where this standard is found to not have been not met than where it was met. Shy of impossibility, the best efforts standard imposes onerous obligations on the party that agrees to be bound by such a clause.

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The right to be forgotten does not apply to data that is not being processed, so your backup situation is clear too and if you ask then you get pretty clear answers. Obviously if you restore the backup you would be expected to re-process right to be forgotten requests, which can be stored for the duration of your backup.

Your lawyer has well and truly convinced you that it's difficult, it's not, and if you have a serious question; you can send it to your countries DPO office: https://edps.europa.eu/data-protection/data-protection/refer...

The backup question, for example, was clearly (publicly) answered by France's DPO.

To be clear here: I don't think you've actually interacted at all with the apparatus surrounding GDPR. It's not my lawyers who are loud, it's lawyer consultants- it's lawyers of companies who's business model is not compliant (trading personal data). It's people in the US and UK who are trying to spread as much uncertainty as possible to either make the EU look incompetent or non-competitive and/or weaken the bloc.

It's absurdly easy to be compliant. For all the whinging, if you're taking the necessary steps to secure data that you should have always been taking, and you don't sell peoples data, then the only thing you need to bake in is a "delete account" function- even things like legal records are exempt so transaction logs are not subject to GDPR. Just read the text.

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are begging the government to limit your choices instead of using your own free will to choose based on your priorities This is the "pro-crack-den" argument. Boring, boilerplate libertarian dogma. Not suitable for use in the real world.

So you’re not capable of choosing which websites you go to?

This is a non-sequitur response.

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the small businesses in question wanted to use Shopify and got fined. Citation needed. Who? This example seems very fictional, as shopify operates in the EU - there is no fine for simply "use shopify". "handle the sensitive financial data". is literally what such services do for their clients.

https://lsww.de/shopify-illegal/ And the HN discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33561222

I see.

It hasn't been big news since then, so in the six months since then, did shopify manage to conduct their business legally, or did the business go to one of their several competitors who cares more about operating legally in the EU?

IDK, is this related? https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/eu-says-sho... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_...

"Company complies with consumer safety law" is hard to spin as a bad thing, but go on, what have you got in that regard?

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’re not capable of choosing which websites you go to?

This is a non-sequitur response.

How so? Why do you need the government to tell you which products you can use? If you don’t like the policies of a particular company, don’t use their products.

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://lsww.de/shopify-illegal/ And the HN discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33561222

I see. It hasn't been big news since then, so in the six months since then, did shopify manage to conduct their business legally, or did the business go to one of their several competitors who cares more about operating legally in the EU? IDK, is this related? https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/eu-says-sho... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_... "Company complies with consumer…

The Shopify announcement was regarding fake goods. It was not regarding the GDPR

> complaints mainly related to web stores hosted by the platform, found to have engaged in illegal practices, such as making fake offers and fake scarcity claims, supplying counterfeit goods or not providing their contact details.

The GDPR basically makes it illegal for an EU online business to use any SaaS service in the US or in this case Canada.

It was never meant to “protect” anyone. The entire purpose was to make it easier for EU companies to compete.

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. It hasn't been big news since then, so in the six months since then, did shopify manage to conduct their business legally, or did the business go to one of their several competitors who cares more about operating legally in the EU? IDK, is this related? https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/eu-says-sho... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_... "Company complies with consumer…

The Shopify announcement was regarding fake goods. It was not regarding the GDPR > complaints mainly related to web stores hosted by the platform, found to have engaged in illegal practices, such as making fake offers and fake scarcity claims, supplying counterfeit goods or not providing their contact details. The GDPR basically makes it illegal for an EU online business to use any SaaS service in the US or in this c…

> The GDPR basically makes it illegal for an EU online business to use any SaaS service in the US or in this case Canada.

No, only if they cannot comply with the law.

> It was never meant to “protect” anyone.

That is the opposite of true. I've seen it help internally at a data storage level, and seen people make use of it to protect themselves. You do not know what you are talking about.

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#197
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the original post was "Stop me if you can." Basically, if there's no rule saying I can't do it, then I should do it, until rules are developed to stop it; regardless of the morality or danger. I suspect that one way to make people more careful, is to make future rules and regulations retroactive. For example, if I had developed a fintech product that was a legal ponzi scheme, or a downloader that is a legal way…

> if the new remedies can be applied to the "legal" implementations that were in effect before the closing of the loopholes, I suspect that it would make the "loopholer" a wee bit more cautious. and there's moral implications about applying new rules retroactively. What you do today that is completely legal, should not be punished tomorrow even if it was decided in the future that it is illegal. Otherwise, there woul…

Exactly. I could see a government, in need of tax revenue, enacting a law that taxes some activity, then going after people that have been doing it for years.

Suddenly, we owe ten years of back taxes, with penalties.

It’s not feasible to do this.

But there are plenty if people –many on this very forum, I suspect– that know what they are doing is highly immoral, and will likely get shut down, but … MONEY … so they do it for as long as they can gt away with it.

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a non-sequitur response.

How so? Why do you need the government to tell you which products you can use? If you don’t like the policies of a particular company, don’t use their products.

> If you don’t like the policies of a particular company, don’t use their products.

So you're saying that the crack houses should be legal and open to all. Cool.

Re: Sam Altman Says OpenAI Will Leave the EU If There's Any Real AI Regulation

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why else would anyone want it?

For starters to, say, protect privacy and intellectual property? Both of those areas are kind of under served in the current ai models landscape

you think Sam Altman wants to protect anyone else's IP other than his own? he's practically helped create an IP laundering machine
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