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Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

seattletimes.com

271–280 of 310 posts

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask your team to do an anonymous, net promoter score for each of the meetings. If you can't prove the claim that productivity is increased by the amount you specify then consider cancelling the meetings.

Net promoter scores wouldn't have any baring on productivity. As an example, often the least enjoyed meetings can be productive (such as telling a person to stop working on their project).

Sure, but here you are merely communicating management error. Why did you ask them to do something that wasn’t needed in the first place?

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> demand a larger share of the billions in wealth we’ve generated for the VCs and CEOs Yeah, well, thoughts like that only come from a context in which there is zero understanding of the realities of business and what it takes to profitably run one. I always find this interesting. Not sure if people just say this kind of thing to just be one of the bro's or because they really believe it. I hope it isn't the latter.…

VCs aren't risking their own money. But yes, on the whole active investors must make less than passive ones if fees are included. CEOs are hardly the only ones with health issues from their jobs. Hell Amazon specifically is so insanely bad about this that Bernie has basically been taking just about them in regards to an exploitive employer that leaves people disabled. Maybe we shouldn't be normalizing unsustainable w…

> VCs aren't risking their own money.

First, that isn't universally true. Also, the term "VC" is often used to mean "investors". I think I can say that the history of most businesses does not start with VC's that manage hundreds of millions of dollars not belonging to them.

Business is hard, very hard. There are very few dorm-to-unicorn stories like Facebook. Even then, the Facebook story isn't about pink unicorns and lollypops for everyone from day one.

That's the major fallacy in these ideologies that vilify business. They don't come from a framework that really understands what is entailed in running and funding a non-trivial organization and making it successful in a globally competitive market.

> Maybe we shouldn't be normalizing unsustainable work that creates health problems for people, whether at the CEO or the regular worker level.

Suggestion: Go work at a farm for a summer.

I don't know of any competitive job of any kind that does not bring with it stress. Let's be careful not to manufacture fantasies. It's the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" idea. I know someone who is theoretically worth nearly $800MM who has problems the average office worker would not want to ever have to face on a daily basis. The grass isn't always greener. It seldom is.

To add to that from a personal anecdote. I started a business back in 2000. It was a hardware/software business. I was locked in my garage 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for 18 months before I could ship our first product. Six month after shipping, and with some sales in the bank, I decided to get a new car. My old car had 200K miles and I could not even consider upgrading it before.

I was talking to a neighbor a couple of weeks after that.

He said something like "Wow! You must have hit the jackpot. Did you get a new job?". You see, from the outside, nobody sees the 18 hour days, 7 days a week, 18 month effort, struggle, pain, suffering, sleepless nights, crying, self-doubt, family problems, financial risk, etc. All they see is Martin driving a new car he did not have for the last five years. That's all they process. They have no clue, at all, none, of what it took to get there --and to stay there.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

I managed a remote team and man is it harder than in person. One common remote work thought is “you get more heads down time” I’ve found almost the opposite. You have to be way more regular about engagement with each person. I would do 20 min meetings with every team member, every week. Team lunches over zoom twice a week, daily standup (1 min per person, plus breakout rooms for further discussions), Friday afternoon…

> You have to be way more regular about engagement with each person.

That is from the people's manager perspective. From the perspective of an IC, the lack of all that extraneous engagement means we have more time to write code.

I know people who are RTOing to be on video conferences all day. Not a fun way to live.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the number is a large enough percentage they couldn't do a lockout. While it may be an industry-wide supply side problem for employees you can't just fire a huge portion of the staff and hire new people and expect things to just keep on truckin', losing that much institutional knowledge would be suicide.

Tell that to Twitter.

amazon is not twitter.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VCs aren't risking their own money. But yes, on the whole active investors must make less than passive ones if fees are included. CEOs are hardly the only ones with health issues from their jobs. Hell Amazon specifically is so insanely bad about this that Bernie has basically been taking just about them in regards to an exploitive employer that leaves people disabled. Maybe we shouldn't be normalizing unsustainable w…

> VCs aren't risking their own money. First, that isn't universally true. Also, the term "VC" is often used to mean "investors". I think I can say that the history of most businesses does not start with VC's that manage hundreds of millions of dollars not belonging to them. Business is hard, very hard. There are very few dorm-to-unicorn stories like Facebook. Even then, the Facebook story isn't about pink unicorns an…

sorry to hear about the overwork. 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration, though (hopefully?) not purposeful. interesting graph for this -- https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/study-p...

as for working on a farm, I'd actually say that's making my point. we should be trying to automate this work away so that folks don't have to grind it out like it's the 1200s. probably not too stressful tho

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> VCs aren't risking their own money. First, that isn't universally true. Also, the term "VC" is often used to mean "investors". I think I can say that the history of most businesses does not start with VC's that manage hundreds of millions of dollars not belonging to them. Business is hard, very hard. There are very few dorm-to-unicorn stories like Facebook. Even then, the Facebook story isn't about pink unicorns an…

sorry to hear about the overwork. 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration, though (hopefully?) not purposeful. interesting graph for this -- https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/study-p... as for working on a farm, I'd actually say that's making my point. we should be trying to automate this work away so that folks don't have to grind it out like it's the 1200s. probably not too stressful t…

> 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration

Nope, not at all. Some days it was 20 (rarely). When you have to do the job of 5 engineers the only path is to be extremely well organized, driven and be willing to put in the time.

> I'd actually say that's making my point > probably not too stressful tho

I guess I didn't make it clear enough. I used farm work as one of the simplest and oldest types of work in history. It is hard work. I would not dare say it isn't stressful.

My greater point is that what you are asking for simply does not exist. You are not going to be able to remove stress from work, no matter where people are working, at the field, a factory, warehouse or the office.

A couple of decades ago I got what I thought was my "dream job". I was miserable for six months, when I left. I could not wait to find something else. I thought my prior work was stressful and the new job would be wonderful. It sure taught me a different perspective on my assumptions.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry to hear about the overwork. 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration, though (hopefully?) not purposeful. interesting graph for this -- https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/study-p... as for working on a farm, I'd actually say that's making my point. we should be trying to automate this work away so that folks don't have to grind it out like it's the 1200s. probably not too stressful t…

> 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration Nope, not at all. Some days it was 20 (rarely). When you have to do the job of 5 engineers the only path is to be extremely well organized, driven and be willing to put in the time. > I'd actually say that's making my point > probably not too stressful tho I guess I didn't make it clear enough. I used farm work as one of the simplest and oldest types of work in his…

Martin, I really enjoy your posts & feel compelled to respond. I think the pushback is primarily on process, not results. Like, you do these 18 hour stints & get the millions & then land up, like you say, in the hospital. Or you could, you know, not put in 18 hours & not have millions & stay out of the hospital. There is that option too. In the midwest where I live, me & my neighbors aren't exactly phoning it in. We log into slack promptly at 9:30 and pick up the assigned jira tickets & git checkin & review the PRs & so forth. But come 5:30 its time for the family. Play outside with the kids, then an hour of TV, then some dinner & off to bed. It works. I don't see the need to complicate life in the fashion you advocate. To what end ? I'd rather spend more time with my wife & kids than hack on pytorch. I think what you are seeing in the millennials is the same sort of dialing back on ambition, not some passionate embrace of marxism. People are just tired. Cut them some slack.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#278
post #159
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do medical doctors; and they've preserved that status by unionizing to protect it.

Medical doctors spend a lot of time and money in med school and residency. They have malpractice risk, and perform more essential work like saving lives and improving people’s health, your health. Working a hospital especially in the ED is stressful. No stock options, rsu grants. Tech workers on the other hand, say engineers, can easily get a high paying FAANG job without a 4yr degree - just spending time grinding le…

> office perks like free lunches, WFH, on site laundry and daycare

WFH perks like lunch, laundry, and daycare.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#279
post #120
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a FAANG salary enough for Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, or Elon Musk?

It would be lovely if some of the folks downvoting this could explain precisely why it is that I should accept my FAANG salary as "enough" while tech billionaires apparently shouldn't, rather than just trying to make this post disappear. It's a perfectly reasonable question -- the ownership class has never considered (and will never consider) any amount of money to be "enough," so why on earth should any of the rest…

It is not a reasonable question. Employee wages and founder equity are not comparable things.

What if Bezos said "y'know what, I'd good with AMZN at $10MM market cap, I'm all set"? There'd be no jobs at Amazon. And no one to complain about the jobs at Amazon.

I would venture to guess that none of your Axis of Excess is particularly motivated by money. They do what they do because they enjoy the game. The game of global corporate titan. Money is an abstract metric that lets them keep playing.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how now is never the right time. It's always just gone or some time soon .

My good man, you are responding to an actual union organizer who actually spent the recent boom years doing "now is the right time" work at software companies, at the actual right time.

If we're taking this opportunity to shout out others

Thank you Shawn - in many ways I owe my career to you!

-HR 33

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