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Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

seattletimes.com

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Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#151

Post by dumpsterdiver »

cudgy wrote: post #126
dumpsterdiver wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a good point but software that exists with no one to sell it is more valuable than salesman with nothing to sell. I would argue that software that exists with no one to sell it is actually MUCH less valuable than a salesman with nothing to sell, because someone has poured countless hours of blood, sweat and tears into that code, and without a salesperson that developer will receive a terrible return on the…

Sunk cost fallacy. The developer has a product to sell regardless of how much effort was spent getting there; they own it and only need to sell it or even license it. The salesperson hasn’t demonstrated they can sell and has nothing of value other than their potential; just like all the other salespeople looking for jobs. A pretty easy class of people to join.

> Sunk cost fallacy. The developer has a product to sell regardless of how much effort was spent getting there; they own it and only need to sell it or even license it.

How is "the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it" relevant?

When a developer spends time on code that no one ever pays money for, whoever is employing that developer has lost money, probably a lot of it.

When a salesperson sits at home unemployed, it costs the company who will eventually employ them nothing.

How in the world are you trying to claim a sunken cost fallacy in this case? Did you respond to the wrong post? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#152

Post by user_named »

lettergram wrote: post #143
chadcmulligan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

I managed a remote team and man is it harder than in person. One common remote work thought is “you get more heads down time” I’ve found almost the opposite. You have to be way more regular about engagement with each person. I would do 20 min meetings with every team member, every week. Team lunches over zoom twice a week, daily standup (1 min per person, plus breakout rooms for further discussions), Friday afternoon…

Sounds like helicopter management

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#153

Post by hw »

worrycue wrote: post #63
x86x87 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has a small window to force the drones back to the office. Once people start having options we're done. WFH will be here to stay.

After they force people back to office then what? It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere. Frankly, I don’t get this drive to RTO. The only gain is face to face meetings might improve productivity (in some people). The downside is increased pollution due to commuting - even with EVs you are wearing out tires increase the amount of micro plastics in the environment, wearing out their…

> It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere.

Even without RTO, people will still leave for other jobs if the grass is greener on the other side. If anything, WFH makes it easier for someone to go job hunting and do interviews.

If the environment is your downside to RTO - you’re reaching.

The loss in productivity when someone does 2 hours in traffic a day is probably a more compelling argument. Companies also have to stock their pantry, hire more office management, renew their office space leases.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#154

Post by lelanthran »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #49

I'm always surprised to see this much desire to work from home all the time. The way I see it. Given a few years, every work from home job will be outsource to some country where the pay is less. Companies are all about cutting costs. If a job can be done at home then it can be done from anywhere in the world. Why not hire the least expensive workforce?

> If a job can be done at home then it can be done from anywhere in the world.

Sure, agreed, but ... if a forced-into-the-office job doesn't actually require a warm body in the office (i.e, the jobs that are under discussion), then that in-office role can be done from anywhere in the world as well.

IOW, sure, if you work from home you are proving to the employer that your job can be outsourced easily, but working from the office doesn't provide any evidence that your job cannot be outsourced.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#155

Post by svachalek »

hw wrote: post #138
wilsonnb3 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world would be a better place if employees were owed something above their agreed upon compensation when their company has extraordinary success, so I choose to believe that they are.

RSUs, stock options - those provide incentive that scales with the company’s success. Just because you’re at Company X that makes billions of dollars and makes one more billion next year does not automatically entitle you to part of that 1b as it’s likely due to work done by employees before you. Turning it around - would you also take a paycut, or even clawing back bonuses or past income if the company starts losing…

You will take a paycut on average, although usually it's borne by a few taking 100% cuts.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#156

Post by lelanthran »

eastbound wrote: post #141
lelanthran wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walking out to protest multiple rounds of layoffs may not be the power move you imagine. Sure it is, if you're unionised! I've seen decades of comments, even here on HN, from devs who say that unions are not necessary for software development. Welcome to the future, I guess?

[flagged]

> Unionization of computer scientists will not happen. Unionization requires low IQ and low ability to separate bullshit or teasing from reality, and software engineers are too clever to be gullible to unions.

I think you're proving the case for unions, not (as you appear to think) arguing against them.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#157

Post by goostavos »

user_named wrote: post #152
lettergram wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I managed a remote team and man is it harder than in person. One common remote work thought is “you get more heads down time” I’ve found almost the opposite. You have to be way more regular about engagement with each person. I would do 20 min meetings with every team member, every week. Team lunches over zoom twice a week, daily standup (1 min per person, plus breakout rooms for further discussions), Friday afternoon…

Sounds like helicopter management

Optional (non-optional) manager led mandatory fun over zoom is my nightmare.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#159

Post by hw »

clipsy wrote: post #60
tjr225 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? These people have lives better than 99% of the population.

So do medical doctors; and they've preserved that status by unionizing to protect it.

Medical doctors spend a lot of time and money in med school and residency. They have malpractice risk, and perform more essential work like saving lives and improving people’s health, your health. Working a hospital especially in the ED is stressful. No stock options, rsu grants.

Tech workers on the other hand, say engineers, can easily get a high paying FAANG job without a 4yr degree - just spending time grinding leetcode or a coding bootcamp. Not to mention the RSUs, office perks like free lunches, WFH, on site laundry and daycare, flexible time off, no set work hours… come on

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#160

Post by lelanthran »

junofan wrote: post #142
lelanthran wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walking out to protest multiple rounds of layoffs may not be the power move you imagine. Sure it is, if you're unionised! I've seen decades of comments, even here on HN, from devs who say that unions are not necessary for software development. Welcome to the future, I guess?

Professional licensure would be great. The whole union thing is for people lower in the pay scale.

> Professional licensure would be great. The whole union thing is for people lower in the pay scale.

Maybe, but in my view unionising is the first step on the way to establishing something similar to what doctors or lawyers or accountants have.

I don't think it is possible to get to "Certified Professional Software Engineer" without first having "Union of Accredited Software Developers".

And therein lies the biggest problem in establishing Professional Licensure: you cannot allow uncertified members. The medical, accounting, engineering and legal professions gatekeep like mad, with the first gate being "complete this degree or equivalent", and the second gate being "write these exams", with various smaller hurdles after that (malpractice insurance, annual dues, etc).

I'd love professional licensure in our industry, but it's not going to happen.

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