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Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

seattletimes.com

121–130 of 310 posts

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#121

Is this really going to work? Aren't they laying off people? Just layoff the walkouts

Officially you can’t be fired for striking right? Guessing there’s a lot of ways a company can get around that though.

Under the Wagner Act you can't be fired for concerted collective action in the workplace, if the goal of such action is to improve working conditions. That is a much broader protection than for just strikes (which are pretty narrowly defined).

But like you say, any corporation worth its salt can find ways to get rid of problem employees without violating the letter of the law even when it's not already planning big layoffs.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#122
post #15

This is long overdue. It is well past time for tech workers to organize and demand a larger share of the billions in wealth we’ve generated for the VCs and CEOs.

Getting FAANG salary isn’t enough?

No, it isn't.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many of you are missing is, its gonna hurt US in the long run. 1. If US people wouldnt want to RTO, these jobs will be moved out to India. You can get to hire 3 people for same pay and they are happy to work. Or you can definitely hire pretty good engineer with half cost and same output 2. Unlike labour work, you are not competing with local people or can benefit from unions. You are competing with world and the…

> these jobs will be moved out to India. You mean just like the other thousand times people said this over the decades?

A big part of the reason it failed for decades is because of the challenges of remote work. It can be difficult to onboard, you need higher documentation standards, more asynchronous communication processes.

Now many people are gung ho on solving these problems to enable wfh. And I personally view that as indirectly solving a lot of the reasons that international offshoring failed.

Even things like challenges with taxes and local labor laws - there are now brand new companies to address exactly that.

In the end the only barriers will be timezones, and even that the aforementioned async flows seek to address.

People keep saying “they tried outsourcing for decades and it failed, it’s a bluff” as if nothing has changed. Lots of stuff changed like improved video tooling. But perhaps the biggest change by far would be the remote first culture people are trying to build. Pre-Covid, every single FAANG company was office-centric to a degree. Bringing in international teams and integrating them would be effectively impossible. Remote first changes that.

Hacker news has so many wfh zealots you won’t even see much discussion around it since people tire of getting downvoted. But worth noting in my experience talking to IC SWE it’s closer to 70/30 preference for remote but based on online convos you’d think it was 99/1.

I personally quit a FAANG job with FAANG comp precisely because my org went remote first. The culture was alienating, the camaraderie was zero, incident management was a coordination nightmare , documentation for onboarding was a mess, and best of all, all my new teammates were Brazilian but since they were contractors they didn’t do on-call.

Management absolutely plans to replace Americans with much cheaper foreigners but there’s still just so much friction with remote-first. The only reason this big outsourcing push might work this time is because of the number of Americans hellbent on overcoming the challenges of remote work and simplifying their own eventual redundancy.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#124

Wow, the pro-corp tone in some of the comments is surprising. Software jobs are one of the few remaining ones where we still hold the means of production -- and can withhold them to our leverage. These folks are walking out for the right reasons -- big f-off to RTO, and even if a bit late, the layoffs.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

I've already bought it, you don't need to sell it to me.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought a million dollar home in Seattle after less than 5 years of employment out of college at a publicly traded non-FAANG company in the area. It’s doable, you just need to compromise on location or luxury

Definitely the exception to the rule

A million dollar home only requires around 200-250k of income which isn’t that much for these areas. And if your partner is employed as well it’s even easier.

I even know people that make sub 100k in the Bay Area that bought their own homes after 10-15 years of saving.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a good point but software that exists with no one to sell it is more valuable than salesman with nothing to sell. Unless you are just trying to grift people, which a disappointingly large percentage of the tech/Silicon Valley/startup crowd are totally cool with.

> You have a good point but software that exists with no one to sell it is more valuable than salesman with nothing to sell. I would argue that software that exists with no one to sell it is actually MUCH less valuable than a salesman with nothing to sell, because someone has poured countless hours of blood, sweat and tears into that code, and without a salesperson that developer will receive a terrible return on the…

Sunk cost fallacy. The developer has a product to sell regardless of how much effort was spent getting there; they own it and only need to sell it or even license it. The salesperson hasn’t demonstrated they can sell and has nothing of value other than their potential; just like all the other salespeople looking for jobs. A pretty easy class of people to join.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many of you are missing is, its gonna hurt US in the long run. 1. If US people wouldnt want to RTO, these jobs will be moved out to India. You can get to hire 3 people for same pay and they are happy to work. Or you can definitely hire pretty good engineer with half cost and same output 2. Unlike labour work, you are not competing with local people or can benefit from unions. You are competing with world and the…

> these jobs will be moved out to India. You mean just like the other thousand times people said this over the decades?

People have been saying this and it has been happening; it sounds like you may be unfamiliar with how many jobs are regularly shifted overseas: “Since Trump’s inauguration on 20 January 2017 to 31 July 2020, over 308,000 workers have been certified for trade adjustment assistance benefits.” The history of off-shoring manufacturing is also pretty well known. Articles about the US’ resulting woeful lack of manufacturing capacity are easy to find.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/12/us-corporat...

Edit: spelling

2nd edit: noting these are not tech specific jobs, but the trend is there.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#128

I'm always surprised to see this much desire to work from home all the time. The way I see it. Given a few years, every work from home job will be outsource to some country where the pay is less. Companies are all about cutting costs. If a job can be done at home then it can be done from anywhere in the world. Why not hire the least expensive workforce?

Are language and communication skills, timezone, cultural willingness to disagree with bad decisions / report bad news, diligence, and UX skills are fungible?

Either they are, and every company has somehow overlooked them, or they aren’t, and years of failed outsourcing experiments has shown this.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many of you are missing is, its gonna hurt US in the long run. 1. If US people wouldnt want to RTO, these jobs will be moved out to India. You can get to hire 3 people for same pay and they are happy to work. Or you can definitely hire pretty good engineer with half cost and same output 2. Unlike labour work, you are not competing with local people or can benefit from unions. You are competing with world and the…

> these jobs will be moved out to India. You mean just like the other thousand times people said this over the decades?

Wonder how many people insisting that software jobs in the US are safe from foreign competition drive Japanese cars, use motherboards and top end CPUs designed and manufactured in Taiwan, use South Korean manufactured DRAM, and use other high tech products pioneered in western countries that are now largely engineered and manufactured outside of the west?

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#130

Wow, the pro-corp tone in some of the comments is surprising. Software jobs are one of the few remaining ones where we still hold the means of production -- and can withhold them to our leverage. These folks are walking out for the right reasons -- big f-off to RTO, and even if a bit late, the layoffs.

Walking out to protest multiple rounds of layoffs may not be the power move you imagine.

> Walking out to protest multiple rounds of layoffs may not be the power move you imagine.

Sure it is, if you're unionised!

I've seen decades of comments, even here on HN, from devs who say that unions are not necessary for software development.

Welcome to the future, I guess?

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