Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#221

Post by worrycue » Tue, May 23, 2023, 7:31 AM UTC

hw wrote: post #153

worrycue wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After they force people back to office then what? It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere. Frankly, I don’t get this drive to RTO. The only gain is face to face meetings might improve productivity (in some people). The downside is increased pollution due to commuting - even with EVs you are wearing out tires increase the amount of micro plastics in the environment, wearing out their…

> It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere. Even without RTO, people will still leave for other jobs if the grass is greener on the other side. If anything, WFH makes it easier for someone to go job hunting and do interviews. If the environment is your downside to RTO - you’re reaching. The loss in productivity when someone does 2 hours in traffic a day is probably a more compelling a…

For most people the waste of time, energy, and money commuting is what they will care about but you can’t deny the environmental impact of millions of people commuting.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#222

Post by caskstrength » Tue, May 23, 2023, 7:37 AM UTC

ajkjk wrote: post #117

chadcmulligan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

It's so annoying that the vocal commenters on here assume that every engineer agrees with them that working from home is preferable to having an office. Nothing against other people working from home but please keep in mind that people's can differ greatly from your own.

> Nothing against other people working from home but please keep in mind that people's can differ greatly from your own.

It is clear who is stopping them from working from home, but who is stopping you from going to the office?

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#223

Post by caskstrength » Tue, May 23, 2023, 7:43 AM UTC

nitinreddy88 wrote: post #100

btbuildem wrote: post #18

Wow, the pro-corp tone in some of the comments is surprising. Software jobs are one of the few remaining ones where we still hold the means of production -- and can withhold them to our leverage. These folks are walking out for the right reasons -- big f-off to RTO, and even if a bit late, the layoffs.

What many of you are missing is, its gonna hurt US in the long run. 1. If US people wouldnt want to RTO, these jobs will be moved out to India. You can get to hire 3 people for same pay and they are happy to work. Or you can definitely hire pretty good engineer with half cost and same output 2. Unlike labour work, you are not competing with local people or can benefit from unions. You are competing with world and the…

This argument is being repeated in every thread about RTO so let me just copy/paste my reply from before:

Because interview process in bigtech has been subverted by people benefiting from it and who are already skilled in it. I bet absolute majority of people that I worked with and considered them very good couldn't solve knapsack problem on whiteboards in 15 minutes, don't know Z algorithm by heart and won't be able to correctly project Amazon leadership principles with (made up bullshit) examples from their previous jobs.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#224

Post by zamalek » Tue, May 23, 2023, 7:52 AM UTC

ajkjk wrote: post #117

chadcmulligan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many people that stand to lose if a fully remote work force came to pass. Building management, HR, middle managers, property investors, they're the ones you're hearing I'd guess. Pure software dev jobs are very easy to do remotely, it's not like we spend all day talking to people any way.

It's so annoying that the vocal commenters on here assume that every engineer agrees with them that working from home is preferable to having an office. Nothing against other people working from home but please keep in mind that people's can differ greatly from your own.

I don't think many of the commenters here assume that at all. It is abundantly clear that working in-office is not threatened - it would be like have been worrying that men would be disenfranchised by women's suffrage. Assuming that in-office work did somehow disappear entirely, then there would also always be the option for WeWork or similar.

This is not a zero-sum game. It is possible for everyone to get what they want.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#225

Post by i2cmaster » Tue, May 23, 2023, 7:54 AM UTC

thisarticle wrote: post #217

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder how many people insisting that software jobs in the US are safe from foreign competition drive Japanese cars, use motherboards and top end CPUs designed and manufactured in Taiwan, use South Korean manufactured DRAM, and use other high tech products pioneered in western countries that are now largely engineered and manufactured outside of the west?

That’s why my wife and I live way below our means. To the point where my wife could just stop working and we’d still be fine (we bank her income and more). If our paychecks got cut in half tomorrow it means we can survive.

I do this as well. It's disturbingly rare.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#226

Post by throwawayidle » Tue, May 23, 2023, 7:59 AM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #107

pretendgeneer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how now is never the right time. It's always just gone or some time soon .

There was a multi-year effort beginning with Trump's election to organize tech workers, and one of the key arguments was that there was a short window of opportunity in which to act, before some combination of automation and changes to the workforce removed the unique leverage tech workers enjoyed. The message was "now is the right time" for maybe three years, and now that ship has sailed. All we're left with is easy…

Speaking as somebody who was there when Tech Solidarity came through town after the Trump election, I saw you give a presentation that focused more on collecting Democratic party donations and fighting Trump than on any actual labor organization.

You had people drive in hours from out of town (this was deep purple Texas, Houston), and you wasted their time rattling a can for a party that sucks. Worse, you never came back.

For anybody interested in real organizing today that isn't just finding handouts for the failed Democratic Machine, check out Communications Workers of America ( https://cwa-union.org/ ). They'll help you form a chapter and learn how to unionize your shop, even if it's small.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#227

Post by zamalek » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:07 AM UTC

hw wrote: post #153

worrycue wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After they force people back to office then what? It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere. Frankly, I don’t get this drive to RTO. The only gain is face to face meetings might improve productivity (in some people). The downside is increased pollution due to commuting - even with EVs you are wearing out tires increase the amount of micro plastics in the environment, wearing out their…

> It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere. Even without RTO, people will still leave for other jobs if the grass is greener on the other side. If anything, WFH makes it easier for someone to go job hunting and do interviews. If the environment is your downside to RTO - you’re reaching. The loss in productivity when someone does 2 hours in traffic a day is probably a more compelling a…

It's not only the environment, RTO also clogs the road for those who are causally tied to a job location (doctors, nurses, baristas, chefs, waste management, etc.).

> 2 hours in traffic a day

I'm starting to wonder if demanding that commute being paid work time would be a reasonable tradeoff (that I wouldn't take myself). If being at the office is part of the job description, then commuting logically follows as a job function.

At the moment, employers are ripping into employees time at the monetary expense of employees. Should we just live closer? Sure! Let's talk about compensating employees for property prices and home security.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#228

Post by scrum-treats » Tue, May 23, 2023, 8:49 AM UTC

amzn-throw wrote: post #162

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has a reputation of being frugal to the point of stupidity (e.g. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-use-frupidi... ) so that tired conspiracy theory especially doesn't hold water for them. Amazon wouldn't give a hoot about the opinions of "building management, HR, middle managers", etc. if anyone there could make a solid business case that increasing WFH would significantly improve their bottom l…

Been with Amazon for over a decade. The frupidity used to be a huge sore spot, but being honest, is no longer a part of the culture. Sure, there are no catered buffets or massage chairs, but the old inflexible rigid frupid systems are all gone. Engineers get top of the line M1 Macbooks, nice monitors and good chairs. The desks are all adjustable sit/stand, not doors. You can get and expense whatever software you need…

Going to push back on this.

Mid 2022, my (brand new) manager received a rigorous scolding for holding a team event where the team (spread out across East Coast and West Coast) met in a single location (Seattle; where majority of the team was) for a couple days of team building (i.e., working in the same office, going out to lunch).

Frupidity may not be the correct word. Perhaps miserly is more appropriate.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#229

Post by o1y32 » Tue, May 23, 2023, 9:29 AM UTC

hw wrote: post #159

clipsy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do medical doctors; and they've preserved that status by unionizing to protect it.

Medical doctors spend a lot of time and money in med school and residency. They have malpractice risk, and perform more essential work like saving lives and improving people’s health, your health. Working a hospital especially in the ED is stressful. No stock options, rsu grants. Tech workers on the other hand, say engineers, can easily get a high paying FAANG job without a 4yr degree - just spending time grinding le…

Did you just make things up?

There are people who work at FAANG without a degree, but that's the absolute minority. Most people have spent years on a formal education, many of which have a master's or even PhDs.

Re: Seattle Amazon workers plan walkout over return to office, layoffs

#230

Post by o1y32 » Tue, May 23, 2023, 9:36 AM UTC

yellow_postit wrote: post #178

neilv wrote: post #4

> “There’s a feeling of the culture and the values that are being told are important for us to bring to the table are not being mirrored by the top executives,” the worker said. “They do not model with their behavior what we are told to do with our roles.” Are they referring to Amazon's Leadership Principles, or something else? https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/our-workplace/leadership-...

For a company so metrics data driven - their RTO writeups sure do lack hard data from what’s been shared publicly.

I'm not surprised, and I haven't seen "official survey" from companies regarding employees' attitude on remote work. They don't have/show data likely because they know data don't work in their favor and they have to come up with nonsense to convince themselves.

I don't work at Amazon, but most of my coworkers never go to office when they don't have to (on "off" days). People prefer staying at home instead of commuting and getting stuck in traffic, isn't that astonishing?