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Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

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Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#101

Post by ornornor »

scottLobster wrote: post #63
rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

At least where I work, it's hard to have passion given the fundamental issues with the codebase that there's never any time or money to address. It's like being on a ship pockmarked with holes and water coming in, that by all rights should be sinking, but is kept going by the endless pockets of our customers paying us to man the various pumps and keep the engines from flooding. And of course throw on new features tha…

I have a similar experience. Working as a programmer is what killed my joy of programming. When I’m done working, I don’t want to look at a computer anymore. Or rather I can’t because I’m exhausted of all the firefighting and bullshit I have to go through for a paycheck.

My most enjoyable moments are the times when I’m in between jobs which I try and stretch for as long as I can (months) and which make me start new side projects just for the fun and enjoyment of it. But once I’m back to the grindstone, I start questioning my life again and wish I was doing anything else than programming.

I think turning a hobby into a career is a good way to ruin that hobby, so I can understand clock punchers and sometimes wish I could just “turn it off” and become one. It would save me a lot of frustration, anger, and unhappiness.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#102

Post by lastangryman »

I find it surprising (in a good way) the author could be a programmer for 26 years at Apple.

A lot of corporate places I've worked at are always pushing you to progress in to leadership positions; if you aren't moving upwards then you are "managed out" which I always find really sad, the idea that simply being good at your job is now no longer enough. Good on Apple if they don't follow this type of thinking.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#103

Post by teirce »

codazoda wrote: post #93
teirce wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few old-adage counterpoints here, such as: don't make your passion/hobby your job, have hobbies outside of your work, etc. But you also touch on something that has surfaced as the money in tech has grown and become much more loud in the last few decades. > Bootcamps have just become farms for people who need a job, but not those who really want this job. This isn't exclusive to bootcamps - they just happe…

Just a small note… Making my programming hobby into a job has resulted in a wonderful and rewarding career for me. I’ve now been coding professionally for around 25 years. I go through waves, but you’ll often find me coding in my spare time before work, after work, or on the weekends. I do much of the stuff this author mentions too, such as designing and 3D printing parts for repairs around the house. Anyway, to each…

And if that has worked out for you, that's great! It's not wise to make generalizations about this kind of thing.

To be clear, I think using what I said in the first bit against the author or comment I replied to is kind of side-stepping the real issue. The first of my comment essentially translates to: turning a hobby into a profession is a high risk, high reward scenario. It can work out fantastic (as in your case) or you can come to hate something you used to enjoy.

Programming-adjacent things, I can enjoy. I like puzzles, I like factory building games, I could see myself building robots or getting into 3D printing random bits. But I don't think that I would ever sit down and write a software library outside of work without a strong personal incentive. I'd just rather spend my time on other things I enjoy equally as much.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#104

Post by paganel »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

What's there to love nowadays when it comes to software? I'm genuinely asking. What's there to love in making a company worth $2 trillion into becoming, what? A $3 trillion company? What's there to love in helping with making a tech dystopia more and more a reality each and every day? The dream of the '90s - early 2000s is well and truly dead, even in Portland.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#105

Post by richardw »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I think of it as:

When people didn't know what to do in the 90's, they went into e.g. advertising or banking. They just wanted a job, advertising was big, seems fun, let's do that. Now those kinds of people "get into tech because you can earn a lot". So you get people who focus more on what they can extract rather than the craft. They arrive, do a job, pretend to be value adders because it's good for bonuses, go home to do what they really want to do.

I guess that's ok, it takes all kinds and it's a big world. But the passionate, the people who love to create and love to refine and want to contribute and make a mark, those are my people. I think they're more likely to be there when you're in the first part of a company's life, before the extractors arrive. Right now I work with many of the builders and it's just wonderful.

I also think that as companies change, get more sluggish and require more paperwork, passion goes out the window and the organisational imperative drives the experience.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#106

Post by bcrosby95 »

worrycue wrote: post #65
hgs3 wrote: post #49

> But there is something becoming more familiar to me as I go back to the wild west of C programming (where very little happens behind the scenes I might point out - no garbage collection here!). I share this sentiment. I pursued computer science because of the romanticized notation of tracking every bit and byte and talking directly to the hardware. I know I'm not alone given the popularity of old-school fantasy con…

> I pursued computer science because of the romanticized notation of tracking every bit and byte and talking directly to the hardware. Isn’t computer science mostly math? Figure people in computer science would be more at home with the abstract stuff like Haskell where you can’t even see the underlying hardware and your programs are expressed as a bunch of (declarative) functions where sequential execution of instruc…

Um, no. At most schools, the only place you might touch something as esoteric as Haskell is in a programming languages class.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#107

Post by makeitdouble »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

In my experience, people staying in the field as developpers for 5~10 years have a genuine interest in the trade.

It might be different if they have some other personal/skill issue, but I've seen anyone doing a decent job for a few years get a path to either management, PM or something more "businessy", and in effect many PMs around me started as programmers. That's where I see the natural filtration of those who actualy saw it as a career and not just as a starting job (pay is usually not that different, or better when you go to a businessy path).

Now, that doesn't mean they (we) don't have a clock-in/clock-out mentality. E.g. I want to have multiple hobbies, and programming is only one of them. I deeply respect people who breath programming day-in day-out, but don't see it as an ideal or something to long for everyone. That's where I'm a bit sad it actively disappoints or drains your energy. I hope you'll find a happy place with people you enjoy working with !

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#108

Post by sawyna »

linguae wrote: post #74
crossroadsguy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> replaced by a clock-in and clock-out mentality I started as a software engineer who was "passionate about software" and could see my life revolving around it. The change in my mindset towards this, that gradually happened few years ago, i.e. the "clock-in and clock-out mentality" is one of the best changes in my life! It always shocks me to see such sentiments from people. I mean how difficult is it for people to c…

I understand this point of view. Unfortunately, for those who entered computing out of a passion for it, it’s difficult to work for employers or managers where computing isn’t a passion. This leads to all sorts of practices that suck the joy out of programming (e.g., Leetcode, meetings, KPIs, PIPs, certain design decisions, etc.), reducing it to a corporate “monkey dance.” Maybe I have rose-colored glasses, or maybe…

I hear you and share the sentiment (for the most part). I don't understand what's with leetcode. Granted it's not the best for way to judge the capabilities of a programmer, but then what is? A design round can be gamed as much as an algorithmic round can be. At least with leetcode, people become aware of different ways of thinking. By different ways, I don't mean different algorithms. I mean, given a base set of capabilities (algos), how to use them effectively to solve a much more diverse set of problems. This kind of pattern almost always exists in my day to day job. The constraints are limited, and I need to figure out an effective way forward.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#109

Post by sureglymop »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

As a young software engineer.. I had an insane amount of passion right until I got into the workforce. As a kid hacking around was great and I thought that's what the job would be like. As soon as I entered the workforce it was pretty apparent that it's not about creativity, curiosity and being passionate and knowledgeable. It's about being agile and delivering quickly, quantity over quality, being good at talking, socializing and networking. And all the older people in the jobs I've worked with were definitely not passionate, they struggled along trying to do what they could to somewhat do the required tasks of the job. I'm still passionate about it but now mostly on weekends when I can use the two days to work on my own side projects. But i think an important point is also, we younger people have a pretty bleak outlook and seemingly uncertain future ahead. With covid lately and other challenges like AI and whatnot there may just be no time to be passionate because it is time spent worrying.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#110

Post by kkfdkerpoe »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I think one would have to be mad to love many ordinary software jobs out there. Being a cog in the machine, with average salary, and a job to maintain boring legacy apps, now that really doesn't sound fun to me. It might be a decent job, but not something to love.
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