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Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

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Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#81

Post by sawyna »

strken wrote: post #70
rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I think there's a number of hours a week I want to spend writing code, but while it's more than 10 it's less than 40. Above and beyond that, I love software, but I don't love Zoom calls, on-call shifts, unnecessarily annoying processes that I'm not allowed to automate, Slack messages, KPIs, objectives that combine vagueness about what we're doing with strict rules about what we're not allowed to touch, horrific dynam…

That's all not programming. I absolutely hate the corporate working style.

The programming part in itself is always interesting to me, because regardless of who sets the constraints (me in a hobby project or the leadership in a company), they are what make the problem challenging and exciting.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#82

Post by Raineer »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I have loved programming (literally) my entire life. Some of the books I learned to read on was TS-2068 BASIC program listings in kindergarten.

Luckily for me, before I got too far down the road into choosing a major, it became clear to me that I would never love getting paid to program. Writing code as a career was not going to appeal to me. Being able to keep it as a hobby, where I can choose how much time I put into it, has kept me happy.

I will always wonder about "the road not taken", but I do think others are coming to that realization.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#83

Post by bruce511 »

linguae wrote: post #74
crossroadsguy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> replaced by a clock-in and clock-out mentality I started as a software engineer who was "passionate about software" and could see my life revolving around it. The change in my mindset towards this, that gradually happened few years ago, i.e. the "clock-in and clock-out mentality" is one of the best changes in my life! It always shocks me to see such sentiments from people. I mean how difficult is it for people to c…

I understand this point of view. Unfortunately, for those who entered computing out of a passion for it, it’s difficult to work for employers or managers where computing isn’t a passion. This leads to all sorts of practices that suck the joy out of programming (e.g., Leetcode, meetings, KPIs, PIPs, certain design decisions, etc.), reducing it to a corporate “monkey dance.” Maybe I have rose-colored glasses, or maybe…

I think you're getting vloser to the root issue.

You can work with passionate people. You can work for a large corporate, for a huge paycheck and stock options. Pick one.

I work for a small company, and I make a great living, but it's a fraction of a fang salary, and there is no stock to option.

On the upside I'm responsible for my code base, I work on whatever I like, (which largely overlaps with customer needs since I like getting paid.) I rarely have a zoom meeting [1], I have in-person catch-up with colleagues once a month, usually at a restaurant over a meal.

The rest of the time we gave informal chat, we push the boundaries of the possible, we experiment, try out big ideas,and generally it's still enough fun to get me out I bed in the morning.

[1] I have a few corporate customers. They exist to remind me why I don't work for a corporate. We have a weekly zoom catchup meeting. Their two lead programmers go from meeting to meeting. Its hilarious and I mock them ceaselessly for it.

But they get paid a lot more than I do, and frankly they're welcome to it.

And clearly I'm not living in San Francisco ;)

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#84

Post by hackernewds »

raz32dust wrote: post #75
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #72

Thank you for your 26 years of service. Career programmers like you who still love programming at the end of it are a treasure. Programming is wonderful. It is an art in itself. Even though Slack and Leetcode and all the rest ruin it, there is nothing else which sparks joy and a sense of wonder like it does for some of us. I wish in our industry we had more wider appreciation and events where we could share stories l…

Wait what did Slack do?

Assuming they also included Leetcode, I think they're venting about the general "tech culture" which surrounds most programming jobs now

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#85

Post by [deleted] »

YZF wrote: post #48
shubhamjain wrote: post #10

> The respite from programming though lasted maybe about four months after retiring. I started a small project , in part to learn Python, in part to play with e-ink displays. I was back programming (back abusing git) but of course the pressure was off. It both was and wasn’t like the day job I had left behind. This is one reasons I got disillusioned with FIRE and the concept of early retirement. Programming was my fi…

I've been really fortunate to have spent most of my career in places with good culture and people (and yes, usually small, but not always). Politics and other corporate bs is hard for people that care because they're just run over by those that don't (which tends to be the default). It's really easy for companies to just look at programmers as people working on a car assembly line (no disrespect meant). I.e. you just…

[deleted]

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#86

Post by teirce »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

There are a few old-adage counterpoints here, such as: don't make your passion/hobby your job, have hobbies outside of your work, etc. But you also touch on something that has surfaced as the money in tech has grown and become much more loud in the last few decades.

> Bootcamps have just become farms for people who need a job, but not those who really want this job.

This isn't exclusive to bootcamps - they just happen to be the most expedient way to act on particular desire. The real problem is how LOUD money has become in 'tech' in the last several decades. When I started undergrad ~10 years ago, at a small school not known for anything Math or CS, there were still a lot of students who entered the CS program because they heard, from their family the internet or the world at large, that it was "a good job". (This also stems from college being seen as 'job prospect' improvement as opposed to something for learning, but that discussion lies elsewhere.)

I got lucky that I liked it. Most of them would drop out of the program / transfer to a different area of focus within a year or so. There were probably somewhere around 50-60 people in my low level CS courses. My graduating CS cohort was 9.

Despite liking it, I still find little desire to tinker on things outside of work. A large part of it is that it _is_ my job. I don't want to work, then go home and 'work' for 'fun'.

The other part of it is, as mentioned by others here, the parts of software a lot of us enjoy the most aren't usually what we get to focus on, in one way or another.

> I want to work with more people who LOVE software and find the development of machines and the code that runs on them as fascinating as I do. Unfortunately, its less and less these days.

I get the impression most of this is going to be exclusive to small projects, teams, and in particular startups. Bigger operations are going to prefer prioritizing the more 'stable' or boring sides of software.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#87

Post by ResearchCode »

YZF wrote: post #48
shubhamjain wrote: post #10

> The respite from programming though lasted maybe about four months after retiring. I started a small project , in part to learn Python, in part to play with e-ink displays. I was back programming (back abusing git) but of course the pressure was off. It both was and wasn’t like the day job I had left behind. This is one reasons I got disillusioned with FIRE and the concept of early retirement. Programming was my fi…

I've been really fortunate to have spent most of my career in places with good culture and people (and yes, usually small, but not always). Politics and other corporate bs is hard for people that care because they're just run over by those that don't (which tends to be the default). It's really easy for companies to just look at programmers as people working on a car assembly line (no disrespect meant). I.e. you just…

In my experience they don't get run over, but they can get outnumbered. If you're in a workplace with more than 10% of people that are dishonest or malicious you should look for an exit.

Those companies create worse software and not more reliably or quickly. You can't micromanage into good software.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#88

Post by esafak »

raz32dust wrote: post #75
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #72

Thank you for your 26 years of service. Career programmers like you who still love programming at the end of it are a treasure. Programming is wonderful. It is an art in itself. Even though Slack and Leetcode and all the rest ruin it, there is nothing else which sparks joy and a sense of wonder like it does for some of us. I wish in our industry we had more wider appreciation and events where we could share stories l…

Wait what did Slack do?

Cause distraction.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#89

Post by Aeolun »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I think, as you move on to higher and higher paying positions, you slowly start being surrounded by people that optimize for money, instead of skill.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#90

Post by ianmcgowan »

zenlikethat wrote: post #55
pinewurst wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone planning to "retire" very soon, I don't like that word at all. I'm hardly planning to move to Florida for wife swapping and pickleball with the other oldsters. I'll be doing whatever suits my fancy, including software, albeit sans Jira and keeping GoogSoft suits happy with the proper newspeak.

Indeed. There's plenty of wife swapping up for grabs in the Bay Area.

The lack of symmetry bugs me - if a couple swaps wives, why isn't it ever called "husband swapping", and wouldn't the (technically, and politically) correct term be "partner swapping"?

Or maybe it can all be subsumed under "swinging" or whatever the modern term is?

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