People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living • Hacker News Board

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#421

Post by mthoms » Sun, May 21, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #367

mthoms wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upon closer inspection, it's an exact reprint of from an article from "National Review" which is a famously conservative organization. >This was a commentary piece which quoted (to comment on) other sources. Understood. I just thought I'd point out the potential for bias because it isn't obvious at a quick read. One of the great things about HN (IMHO) is that people tend to discuss things from a more scientific persp…

> Upon closer inspection, it's an exact reprint of from an article from "National Review" which is a famously conservative organization. Conservative? It must be wrong then! Everybody knows that only liberal sources can have correct viewpoints! > More to the point, there is no link to this study cited in the very first paragraph. As a Canadian I've never heard of this study so was interested to take a look. Googling…

>Conservative? It must be wrong then! Everybody knows that only liberal sources can have correct viewpoints!

That's not what I said. There's a vast difference between quoting X public figure might have a conservative viewpoint and quoting an opinion piece from an organization who's entire reason for existing is to spread conservative opinions. Spreading those opinions is literally their job. It's what pays the rent.

I hope you can see why that is important context to know.

>Dishomest "interpretation", eh?

As mentioned, I did see the question and the results already but I'm still glad you posted it. As you can see the question is about "assistance in dying". It says it twice. But that opinion piece discussing the results however never even mentions the phrase. It does use the much scarier words "euthanasia" and "murder" repeatedly. (Just in case the distinction is unclear - assisted dying implies personal autonomy, while euthanasia and murder do not). So what we have here is not just a conservative opinion, it's literally false information. Euthanasia is not what the poll is about. Nor murder.

Note: I'm not interested in advocating for or against assisted dying or discussing the poll results. That's tangential to my point; this is terrible source to post on HN.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#422

Post by mthoms » Sun, May 21, 2023, 3:25 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #338

mthoms wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upon closer inspection, it's an exact reprint of from an article from "National Review" which is a famously conservative organization. >This was a commentary piece which quoted (to comment on) other sources. Understood. I just thought I'd point out the potential for bias because it isn't obvious at a quick read. One of the great things about HN (IMHO) is that people tend to discuss things from a more scientific persp…

This particular issue is difficult to discuss from a scientific perspective, because basically the only non-opinion (i.e. ideological) questions that can be asked are: whether making assisted suicide legal increases or decreases total suicides, and what are the economic impacts of assisted suicide legalization. Everything else about assisted suicide is ideological or ideological driven (at minimum, the balance betwee…

I agree that bias is unavoidable. But what we're talking about here is an organization who's entire purpose for existing is to spread conservative views. Furthermore, they blatantly misrepresented the very question asked in the poll. The poll is not about "euthanasia" or "murder", yet the piece implies otherwise.

Since it's emotionally charged and intentionally misleading, it's not really the best source to quote.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#423

Post by the_only_law » Sun, May 21, 2023, 3:44 PM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #152

harlanji wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He next question was whether I was an organ donor. That's dark. I've been homeless for 5 years (including working full time and having never been an addict). I'm very healthy so for a while I felt like I could be targeted by black marketeers like organ harvesters. > I completely see why people turn to hard drugs, I consider opioids daily almost. I joke that if I were to give up and become an addict at least someone…

I'm glad you're still chugging along. Until you need real help you've no idea who your real friends are, I've found. Which is why I feel like I've no true friends left. From experience I know how hard it is being down and out and without a support system, so I really hope you're able to find a solution. I know every single homeless resource I ever tried didn't work. They just passed my name from non-profit to non-pro…

> Until you need real help you've no idea who your real friends are, I've found. Which is why I feel like I've no true friends left.

Even sadder when those “friends” are the type who opine about mental health all the time.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#424

Post by anonymouskimmer » Sun, May 21, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #421

coldtea wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Upon closer inspection, it's an exact reprint of from an article from "National Review" which is a famously conservative organization. Conservative? It must be wrong then! Everybody knows that only liberal sources can have correct viewpoints! > More to the point, there is no link to this study cited in the very first paragraph. As a Canadian I've never heard of this study so was interested to take a look. Googling…

>Conservative? It must be wrong then! Everybody knows that only liberal sources can have correct viewpoints! That's not what I said. There's a vast difference between quoting X public figure might have a conservative viewpoint and quoting an opinion piece from an organization who's entire reason for existing is to spread conservative opinions. Spreading those opinions is literally their job . It's what pays the rent.…

From my perspective the poll itself is somewhat biased in wording. Personally I'm in favor of not using these terms at all, but explicitly writing out the process in the question: "Are you in favor of allowing people to have medical practitioners inject or provide them with lethal drugs in order to die for reasons of..."

In 2021 there were 10,064 deaths by MAiD in Canada, fewer than 7 were self-administered[1]. Making greater than 99.9% of MAiD deaths euthanasia, or at least consented-to mercy killings. I personally think calling them "assistance in dying" implies an autonomy in the actual act that does not exist. The autonomy is theoretically[2] in the decision (until the exact moment of administration), but this is the case for all suicides.

"Assisted dying" also, to me, implies inevitability. That the person is already dying, and that this process is just made easier. 219 of the 10,064 MAiD deaths (2.18%) in 2021 were of people whose deaths were "not reasonably foreseeable" (not in progress)[1]. "Assisted dying" is a disingenuous term for these deaths, "assisted suicide" is better. I don't know whether the change in terms would have altered the polling results. I'd presume that most people realize that poverty is not a lethal condition, but I don't know what's going through their heads as they answer the question.

[1] - https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi...

[2] - Except for those who feel pressured into it for social or economic reasons.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#425

Post by anonymouskimmer » Sun, May 21, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #422

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular issue is difficult to discuss from a scientific perspective, because basically the only non-opinion (i.e. ideological) questions that can be asked are: whether making assisted suicide legal increases or decreases total suicides, and what are the economic impacts of assisted suicide legalization. Everything else about assisted suicide is ideological or ideological driven (at minimum, the balance betwee…

I agree that bias is unavoidable. But what we're talking about here is an organization who's entire purpose for existing is to spread conservative views. Furthermore, they blatantly misrepresented the very question asked in the poll. The poll is not about "euthanasia" or "murder", yet the piece implies otherwise. Since it's emotionally charged and intentionally misleading, it's not really the best source to quote.

> it's not really the best source to quote.

Sure. I presumed people could parse out the emotion from such an obviously biased source and focus on the claims. But yes, cherry-picked quotes have a higher likelihood from such a source.

The purpose of a source doesn't matter. Whether or not they are misrepresenting (and what they are misrepresenting) does. ProPublica exists solely "To expose abuses of power and betrayals of the public trust by government, business, and other institutions, using the moral force of investigative journalism to spur reform through the sustained spotlighting of wrongdoing." Yet it does it right, earning a very highly-placed spot on the Ad Fontes Media Bias Chart.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#426

Post by theGnuMe » Sun, May 21, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

cmehdy wrote: post #420

theGnuMe wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sounds like you are in constant hypervigilance mode which is part of the limbic system for fight or flight. It is exhausting. It can be very hard to identify the root cause especially if it is a state that developed from childhood but its a coping mechanism to stress. It was likely adaptive for something in your past but that you likely don't need anymore... and as you say some events you've experienced so you m…

I probably have a few things that contribute to a case of CPTSD. Some things can help me (parts of CBT/DBT, zen koans, meds..). But it's also difficult to change a thing that is a feature of you, in that it has been there for so long that everything else was built around it. Just like maths problems, getting to the core of things often requires making your life harder for a while before coming back to the surface - a…

Awareness itself precipitates change. Being aware reveals that choosing our response is the only thing we can control.

Anyway I read this article once while depressed and a second time recently.

https://thebaffler.com/salvos/endlessly-examined-life

What strikes me now after reading that is how boring (my) depression really is. I'm in no way saying the author's depression is more exciting at all. He self-describes it as a total waste -- not to be confused with the fact that I find his article interesting in that it reveals how boring depression is, it is a boring life course. That is illustrative and perhaps preventative and curative for others? So in that sense he made something out of it which is great!

My depression is routed in anxiety which is based on fear of being judged. That's pretty boring in the scheme of things and being judged is something we can't control anyway unless we don't want to do anything and be boring.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#427

Post by cat_plus_plus » Sun, May 21, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #377

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut. For example, I have a much more modest desire to have a shared hobby with is common and not expensive or difficult to pursue and a group of friends (casual to start with) to go and do that in free time. I…

>My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut. I would agree that it often isn't enough by itself. My thinking is more along the the lines that it is a necessary prerequisite, but not always sufficient by itself. Nothing in this life is guaranteed. Im…

Oh well, my advice to someone I cared about is tell me what I can do to help. And of course at this point, other commitments in my life as well as general ideas of what is healthy come into play. The other person will have to respect my boundaries and put in a substantial effort to be helped effectively. But, that is very different from being left on your own.

Since I obviously can't care about everyone, I would like to see a society that encourages virtuous cycles rather than downward spirals. Let there be regular public holidays with festivities that single individuals can enjoy without being awkward and that provide opportunities to reconnect with neighbors and meet strangers. Let there be a culture where if one is missing a cooking ingredient or needs to borrow a stepladder, the first impulse is to ask a neighbor for help rather than going to Instacart. This will give these neighbors a license to stop by and chat later without losing their dignity.

Collectively, majority that is doing Ok mentally is in a better position to boost someone who is not, without any single person getting overwhelmed, as opposed to someone who is down figuring it out on their own.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#428

Post by [deleted] » Sun, May 21, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

rcpt wrote: post #277

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

[deleted]

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#429

Post by verulito » Sun, May 21, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

I have a medical condition that makes me sensitive to everyday noises. It started when a friend invited me to learn to shoot but was complacent about my hearing safety.

Lots of conditions have pain from sound but this is no ordinary condition. It is highly unstable and degenerative. Something is broken, the more broken it gets, the more easily it gets broken, and the longer it takes to heal, if at all. Many of these patients are stuck indoors 24/7, with earmuffs and earplugs, afraid of even the slightest sounds. Even then, they still get a myriad of symptoms, different kinds of pain, autophany, visual snow, distortions. Most have tinnitus, myself included, and it can be very, very loud. One poor guy has 50 tones. Another woman hears it in her sleep.

All these people want to live but this condition is living torture and you end up living like a caged animal. We have no idea what causes it and there's little hope of improvement, given that it gets virtually no research money. No drugs exist which can mask the pain. Many of these patients end up going because they truly have no options, no hope, and living has become unendurable.

Thankfully my hole isn't so deep yet but I have decades of dental appointments and MRIs to endure. As long as I mostly stay home and avoid nearly all social interaction, I can probably hold out a long time before I get that bad. However, I also have mystery tendonitis and other pains that are getting worse so idk. My mast cell labs are all very abnormal so I'm thinking it's auto-inflammatory.

Mayo clinic is a waste of time I hear for stuff like this. I'm going to try the Metrodora institute, see if they can come up with something. Nervous that I may worsen from the flight and end up stuck there.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#430

Post by mthoms » Sun, May 21, 2023, 9:18 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #425

mthoms wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that bias is unavoidable. But what we're talking about here is an organization who's entire purpose for existing is to spread conservative views. Furthermore, they blatantly misrepresented the very question asked in the poll. The poll is not about "euthanasia" or "murder", yet the piece implies otherwise. Since it's emotionally charged and intentionally misleading, it's not really the best source to quote.

> it's not really the best source to quote. Sure. I presumed people could parse out the emotion from such an obviously biased source and focus on the claims. But yes, cherry-picked quotes have a higher likelihood from such a source. The purpose of a source doesn't matter. Whether or not they are misrepresenting (and what they are misrepresenting) does. ProPublica exists solely "To expose abuses of power and betrayals…

Just take the "L" :-). You're not going to convince me that it was a worthwhile source, or that the motivations of a speaker don't deserve consideration. Thats plainly absurd. Especially when there's money AND (religious) ideology involved. Sorry.

It's true that no source is perfect - but some sources are much less perfect than others.

Anyways, thanks for the respectful dialogue. Cheers.