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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#351

Post by cat_plus_plus »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #344
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder…

My point is pretty simple. It is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. I wasn't taking a position on what people should do with this information, but I think that understanding the fact is important if you want to change anything , or simply understand how the world works. In the context of depression, I think it is up to the individual if they want to change. In your example, the relev…

My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut.

For example, I have a much more modest desire to have a shared hobby with is common and not expensive or difficult to pursue and a group of friends (casual to start with) to go and do that in free time. I have been at it for a year, taking classes, asking classmates and coworkers to join me. Not. A. Single. Luck.

Now, I have family, successful career, financial freedom, enough health to be active, no serious character flaws that would tax friendships. Are you telling me a fat and bitter guy who have been living alone long enough to be rusty in social graces is going to suddenly have willing friend material, let alone romantic prospects?

Personally I am not going to judge him or say he should have just tried harder. You?

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#352

Post by fuzzfactor »

chris_st wrote: post #306
joewferrara wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty good considering the fact that David Foster Wallace took his own life in the end. I read the whole quote before I saw at the end it’s from him.

Takes one to know one, as we used to say...

It also might be revealing to read the account of the guy that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#353

Post by 8note »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #278
vaidhy wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think my right to live also includes my right to die with dignity.

Sure. But just as you don't have a right to material support from the state in order to live, you don't have a right to material support from the state in order to die. Unless you happen to live in a country in which you do have such a right. Regardless, these rights are limited. I'm in favor of increasing the first right such that suicides are minimized, and reducing the second right to not prosecuting you for attem…

My right means the government can't hinder me. Making it illegal, regardless of whether it's prosecuted or not is stamping on my rights. The government has no ability to make it illegal

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#354

Post by s1artibartfast »

twelve40 wrote: post #346
s1artibartfast wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think that third worlders have better mental health than first worlders with respect to depression. Different people respond in wildly different ways to hardship and trauma. The difference in outcome between two people is internal, not circumstance. It is impossible that it could be otherwise when you some people have experienced the worst the world has to offer and are relatively happy, while some others have e…

Well the first group you mentioned is borderline abused so of course they would be miserable. The second group is interesting. > enjoy simple pleasures. Equip them with cognitive tools to deal with the challenges of life and disappointment in healthy ways is this really fully teachable? Is it something that truly can be trained or it depends on a very complicated number of external and internal factors, including gen…

I would agree that the first case could be construed as abuse, but this type of abuse is relatively common to some degree.

My point was more to illustrate the fact that cognitive development and personality impact how people experience the world, and is probably the biggest factor in what we consider depression.

The point is to show how trivial it would be to bias humans towards depression and thereby illustrate the importance of the psychological component.

I don't think that you can teach kids in a way that's 100% successful, but I still think it is a huge Factor, probably then the biggest. There's vast amount of data that backs this up.

When it comes to my statement about expectations, it is obviously more nuanced. What I meant is low expectations for how easy life will be in that they will have to overcome challenge and that a happy and successful life requires work. Also low expectations for the material necessity is to have a happy life. I look around today and see lots of peers who think they can't be happy without owning a home. Owning a home is admittedly more difficult now than in the past, but even then something like 40% of people would never be homeowners in their life. If that's a prerequisite for happiness, you have doomed 40% of the population to be unhappy

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#355

Post by spacedcowboy »

Centigonal wrote: post #327
spacedcowboy wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where my wife was, a week or so ago. She was initially admitted to hospital for low Sodium (hyponatremia) with no obvious symptoms - we actually went for something else which was benign. They corrected the low Sodium, but they corrected it quickly - possibly too quickly [1]. The next day she started to become non-responsive, and the day after was completely non-responsive - didn't react to pain stimuli, dropp…

It sounds like you're going through a real-life nightmare! This whole story sounds insane (assuming you're not leaving out essential details), with multiple overlapping failures. I am not a medical professional, so take this all with a grain of salt (no pun intended). First off, idiopathic hyponatremia in non-elderly, non-pregnant, otherwise healthy people is unusual - why was your wife hyponatremic to begin with? Th…

Thanks for the info :)

Regarding leaving stuff out. I'm really not. My only concern here is getting my wife well, and she absolutely had none of these symptoms previously, or any hint of them, and whilst I haven't described every individual visit to ER in detail, they all follow the same pattern as recounted. We've just had the first round of specialists, and I don't have a very high opinion of her PCP, but now that we have the specialists, I'm more hopeful that something might get done.

None of the doctors involved told us about the dangers of raising Sodium quickly. The neurologist agreed that it might be and put my wife on Prednisone/something-to-help-her-stomach after our first visit. It was actually my boss' wife (she's a doctor) that mentioned ODS to him and hence to us. FWIW, work has been outstandingly supportive over the last couple of months, the only real shining light.

The MRI doesn't seem to support ODS though, but I personally think it's too much of a coincidence that she responded so poorly, and then symptoms very similar to it emerged later. It might not be ODS, but something happened. She had none of these symptoms before going in.

As for why she had hyponatremia, she had diarrhoea the week previously, and the hospital put it down to that. We had no idea her sodium was low - as I said we went in for something unrelated (that turned out to be benign).

The PCP put her on Ativan, right up until she said "I don't feel comfortable prescribing this any more, so I'm not going to". Cue the argument about withdrawal and the PCP saying she'd talk to the neurologist and see if the neurologist would take over. I get the feeling the PCP is very much a "fair weather" doctor - fine for when things are fine...

The neurologist has changed away from Ativan to another benzo, but has also prescribed mirtazapine as a more long-term solution. We have another visit with her scheduled at the end of the month.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#357

Post by cat_plus_plus »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #341
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder…

> Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not thousands, of times. It's usually difficult. Like, really difficult, but sometimes, it's well worth the effort. We can often help each other through the rough bits. I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Ma…

Oh sure, I know people have rebuilt their lives in 50s. But there is luck and anecdotes and there is prevailing reality. When something is difficult, it requires physical and emotional stamina to overcome. At some point, one may be unable to handle hundreds of rejections after trying to make a single casual friend in a space of years. Not lazy, or insufficiently motivated, just not able to, period. And that assumes, for example, enough financial independence and free time from work to try in the first place. I am not ready to declare people who give up defective or put all the responsibility at their feet, rather than society in general or plain bad luck.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#358

Post by fuzzfactor »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #130
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #30

This is something that I have had some personal experience with. I've known quite a few suicides, and survivors of the suicides of others. Very much a "walk a mile in a man's shoes" kind of thing. Everyone has opinions on the matter, until it hits them. Then, they have personal experience (not just an opinion). It sucks. In some cases, I can see why someone would want to end it all. In others, like this one[0], I fin…

people seek alcohol in pathological amounts to numb a pain they carry around. you don't know what pain that was for him and what caused it. not everybody stumbles into alcoholism out of habit, partying too much or work related stress.

I'm no doctor but I know they seldom have actual pharmaceutical cures, however they can often provide worthwhile treatments which are very effective and truly make life more worth living.

Not always through medication.

Sometimes things work out for the best without doctors involved, also with medication or not.

I just have a lifetime of working (as carefully as possible to minimize harmful exposure) with very toxic materials.

Beverage Grade alcohol is just one of them.

People widely accept that alcohol is truly a substance that can be abused, but it has never been scientifically sound to classify it as a "drug".

It is simply a toxic solvent like many others, it's primary effect is not to kill pain, more so just to kill, usually germs but depending on the amount applied, all life forms eventually.

Most will agree that one of the additional characteristics of a solvent is to accomplish dilution of some kind or another. Maybe not unlike weakening a strong pigment with paint thinner, solvents in the bloodstream seem to weaken an otherwise strong mental state. Sometimes also not so strong to begin with. I think it's also well known people like it anyway, some choose alcohol, others paint thinner, sometimes depending on availability sometimes not. Ideally whether painting or not the solvent dissipates and things end up as intended.

Toxic materials will always have dangers which sometimes accumulate more than others, and need to be carefully balanced against non-toxic approaches.

As we have seen, the overwhelming number of toxic choices can seem so encompassing and exclusive to alternatives.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#359

Post by wahnfrieden »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

closer to 40 than 30 now and the fix is to not work.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#360

Post by spacedcowboy »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #324
spacedcowboy wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where my wife was, a week or so ago. She was initially admitted to hospital for low Sodium (hyponatremia) with no obvious symptoms - we actually went for something else which was benign. They corrected the low Sodium, but they corrected it quickly - possibly too quickly [1]. The next day she started to become non-responsive, and the day after was completely non-responsive - didn't react to pain stimuli, dropp…

What a terrible experience you are going through. I hope it makes a turn for the better, and soon. I'm curious what you mean by one of your closing comments: >Still trying to answer "why won't someone help me ?" without sounding trite and jaded Not looking to debate, but genuinely curious.

Because I agree with her that she's not getting the help she needs, but I don't know where else to go.

- Her PCP seems useless - basically a glorified project manager for other expert opinions, and the time taken to get appointments with these experts is straining.

- Going to urgent care, or doing an 'online Dr visit' just gets the advice to go to ER instead, because of the breathing.

- Going to ER (which we have, several times) just gets her admitted to the ER beds, put on an IV for fluids, maybe a chest X-Ray taken, and then discharged after a few hours with a recommendation to go see her PCP.

- the neurologist has been the best of them so far, but she's 30 miles away and we get to see her once per month. I'm grateful for the help we've had from the neurologist, but it's not much use at 3am when she can't breath, again, is in pain, again, and feels like her chest has a bar pressing down across it, again. Going to ER because of this is covered above.

No-one wants to take ownership, everyone (with the exception so far of our neurologist) wants to try and get someone else to "manage this case". It doesn't leave one with the warm fuzzies, especially given the last couple of months.

It has actually reached the point where I've considered - not seriously yet, but it's still there - selling up, leaving the US and going back home to the UK. Myself and my son are citizens by right, I have enough cash/equivalents that getting a spousal visa wouldn't be an issue, and we'd pay the NHS surcharge for a few years - still a lot less than my insurance here. We could even be closer to family for better support. The largest factor against, in fact, is the logistics of simply getting her there, taking a plane seems like a poor option atm, and she gets very seasick even on cruise liners. Once there, having bought a house with the proceeds of the sale of this one, retirement would be pretty easy on me, and maybe a health service more focussed on making people better, over making money, might be better for her.

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