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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#381

Post by anonymouskimmer »

robotresearcher wrote: post #372
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular issue is difficult to discuss from a scientific perspective, because basically the only non-opinion (i.e. ideological) questions that can be asked are: whether making assisted suicide legal increases or decreases total suicides, and what are the economic impacts of assisted suicide legalization. Everything else about assisted suicide is ideological or ideological driven (at minimum, the balance betwee…

What’s the basis of this strong claim? Some people are opposed to suicide under any circumstances because it is proscribed by their religion. They have been told by an authority that it’s wrong. They hold a strong bias against it. For people without that view, why would they be biased? Are they not free to come to their own conclusion? Having an opinion does not preclude a good faith argument. And holding an opinion…

> For people without that view, why would they be biased?

- Fear of pain

- Fear of old age, or aging in general

- Fear of debility

- Fear of loss of autonomy

- Desire for liberty to do what they want without input from others who may be affected by their decisions

Most people don't opine on issues unless they feel strongly about them. A strong feeling is a bias. There are few scientific parameters on the issues of suicide/euthanasia/MAiD, but it's fraught with ideological parameters, and basically all of the discussion about it comes down to ideology-based claims (with the few fact-based claims used as singular arguments to support a position).

I'm an atheist who values life in large part because I don't believe in an afterlife. I find pain unpleasant, but don't particularly fear it (at this point in my life). I fear the social pressures that government sanctioning and assistance with suicide brings. I fear the decisions that would be made about me, if I'm incapacitated, by people with different moral standards, in a societal framework that encourages them to make those calls for me. I fear the repercussions of "me"-centric (egocentric) social policies, given the power differentials between various individuals. These are my biases.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#382

Post by renewedrebecca »

spacedcowboy wrote: post #309
rcpt wrote: post #277

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

This is where my wife was, a week or so ago. She was initially admitted to hospital for low Sodium (hyponatremia) with no obvious symptoms - we actually went for something else which was benign. They corrected the low Sodium, but they corrected it quickly - possibly too quickly [1]. The next day she started to become non-responsive, and the day after was completely non-responsive - didn't react to pain stimuli, dropp…

I'm so sorry your wife (and you) are going through this. When the medical system fails, it fails hard. I don't know what to say except that I hope you all get to the bottom of this quickly and she gets the help she needs.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#383

Post by omginternets »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #227
omginternets wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t dismiss everybody’s opinions on the matter for lack of direct experience. You’re setting things up to avoid debate.

"War talk by men who have been in a war is always interesting; whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been in the moon is likely to be dull." - Mark Twain

The good thing about interesting vs dull is that you can just filter it on the spot. No need to dismiss people before actually hearing what has been said.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#384

Post by effingwewt »

benj111 wrote: post #345
effingwewt wrote: post #106

Crazy this showed up today. I do this 'existential calculus' quite often. I also sometimes wonder what the point is when it just gets worse every year. My therapist told me it's because I'm a survivor , it's what I do . But what's the point of surviving? At what point do I get to live , much less be happy? She pointed out it would be throwing away all my battle scars, all the effort I'd put in to get this far. Just t…

Do you count yourself as suicidal? This rings true to me, I wouldn't describe myself as suicidal though.

Not sure. I attempted it once as a young man, but my roommate found me passed out with a foamy mouth and got me to the hospital.

I will say I think a lot about that, and how much pain I'd have saved myself had I simply locked my door.

As I mentioned it's a struggle I know I will lose one day, it's just a question of when.

Days like today it's hard to breathe. Like my chest/body feel weighty. I try not to think about things but the moment my mind wanders I find myself back in the mire, doing my calculations, thinking of ways, and looking forward to not feeling anymore. But I smoke a blunt and try to make it to the next 10 minutes, hour, day.

Is that suicidal? I don't know.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#385

Post by treeman79 »

throwaway02sfv wrote: post #325
treeman79 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Underlying causes. Autoimmune Sjogrens, clotting disorder that was in over drive (factor 5) high cranial pressure(IIH) Nerve damage(probably from Sjogrens) lot Vit D Did an elimination diet. That calmed the body down. AIP diet to maintain. Started high doses of Vit D, E, Omega 3. Started watching bob and Brad and spent a couple hours a day on stretching and massages. Discovered and treated TMJ. Removing smells and li…

My wife seems to have broadly the same symptoms you are mentioning. Sharp migraines, anxiety attacks (as per doctors), rapid heartbeats, disturbed sleep, bodyache, random mood swings etc. Her MRI is clean too. Doctors just started her with blood thinners which might be alleviating some pain but no, she is not feeling good at all. Had done multiple tests, visited bunch of doctors but still yet to figure what's exactly…

Rhumtologist to check for autoimmune. Avg time period for diagnosis for mine (Sjogrens) is 7 years.

Get test results and look them up. Doctors kept ignoring positive results, saying they are false flags. Like high ANA. When I kept pushing for more tests they kept saying results didn’t matter. Or they use tests that Re 1/3 false negative.

With diet I didn’t need dr approval and lots of people say it works better than meds. I found that to be true. It is a Huge mental block on giving up comfort food when hurting.

Clotting (factor 5) food didn’t matter. But I found artificial sugar was a trigger.

Neurologist for nerve pain or head.

Neuro-ophtomoligist are often good at whole body issues.

IIH high cranial pressure may or may not have clean MRI. Lumbar puncture is needed.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#386

Post by robotresearcher »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #381
robotresearcher wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the basis of this strong claim? Some people are opposed to suicide under any circumstances because it is proscribed by their religion. They have been told by an authority that it’s wrong. They hold a strong bias against it. For people without that view, why would they be biased? Are they not free to come to their own conclusion? Having an opinion does not preclude a good faith argument. And holding an opinion…

> For people without that view, why would they be biased? - Fear of pain - Fear of old age, or aging in general - Fear of debility - Fear of loss of autonomy - Desire for liberty to do what they want without input from others who may be affected by their decisions Most people don't opine on issues unless they feel strongly about them. A strong feeling is a bias. There are few scientific parameters on the issues of su…

Those sound like views you have arrived at by your own consideration, and not things that would cause you to discuss the topic dogmatically.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#387

Post by tomtheelder »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

I think your perspectives on things and your priorities can change as you get older in ways that are very difficult to imagine as a young person. I might once have agreed with this comment, but now I live a lot of that life and it’s fantastic and I’m happier than I’ve ever been.

Also parties that end at 9 are incredible. I fought this one hard for a _long_ time, but life is honestly just better when you go to bed earlier and wake up earlier. More daylight is a great thing.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#388

Post by robodan »

spacedcowboy wrote: post #360
s1artibartfast wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a terrible experience you are going through. I hope it makes a turn for the better, and soon. I'm curious what you mean by one of your closing comments: >Still trying to answer "why won't someone help me ?" without sounding trite and jaded Not looking to debate, but genuinely curious.

Because I agree with her that she's not getting the help she needs, but I don't know where else to go. - Her PCP seems useless - basically a glorified project manager for other expert opinions, and the time taken to get appointments with these experts is straining. - Going to urgent care, or doing an 'online Dr visit' just gets the advice to go to ER instead, because of the breathing. - Going to ER (which we have, se…

You might see if a destination medical establishment like the Mayo Clinic or Cleveland Clinic could be more responsive. These kinds of places are setup so people can fly in, see a bunch of specialists, and get a bunch of tests in a single trip.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#389

Post by tough »

spacedcowboy wrote: post #380
ianburrell wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you find a new PCP? One that may not be a good family doctor but can coordinate care. You are probably already doing it, but I have heard that it is really important to have advocate when patient can't organize themselves. If you can, go to appointments, take notes, and ask lots of questions. Push on uncertainty until get tests and answers. Try and solve separate problems, like Ativan dependency, so can focus on…

I'm in the process of looking for a new PCP - although now we actually do have access to the specialists that I think we needed to, and our interaction is more or less just "send a non-urgent message" on the web-platform, and get a referral back the next working day. I am at every single one of these appointments - I was in a better position to recall how things went down, and I am very much her advocate. She's had m…

This could be absurd but have you tried ChatGPT for clues?

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#390

Post by sneak »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #30

This is something that I have had some personal experience with. I've known quite a few suicides, and survivors of the suicides of others. Very much a "walk a mile in a man's shoes" kind of thing. Everyone has opinions on the matter, until it hits them. Then, they have personal experience (not just an opinion). It sucks. In some cases, I can see why someone would want to end it all. In others, like this one[0], I fin…

Death isn't the terrible tragedy many make it out to be. Very soon we will all be dead; this is all temporary anyway.
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