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Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

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Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#121

Post by djaychela »

chrisldgk wrote: post #115
michaelteter wrote: post #84

There are two issues here. One is that we need to come up with comprehensive solutions for reducing the number of vehicles in use. But that’s a difficult problem where solutions take decades and must be tailored to each scenario. But what can be addressed now is the engine and exhaust sound levels. Some vehicles are loud because their engines are working hard, but many vehicles are loud because people (boys) want the…

I think you’re focusing on the wrong issue here. Engine noise nowadays is a lot less of a problem than tire noise, especially with cars going 50km/h+. Some cars are loud because people want them to be, most cars are loud because the noise the tires make when driving is loud, and that only gets worse the more cars you have around.

Not my experience. I live next to a 40mph dual carriageway which is an arterial route. The road noise is pretty much constant, and I don't find it that disturbing (although my recently-moved-in partner differs on this). What is disturbing to everyone is the sound of loud-exhaust boyed up sheds which drive past pretty much every day. There's one guy who has made his car backfire, and does this pretty much every time he drives past, at around 11pm each night. Incredibly annoying, selfish behaviour.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#122

Post by einpoklum »

michaelteter wrote: post #84

There are two issues here. One is that we need to come up with comprehensive solutions for reducing the number of vehicles in use. But that’s a difficult problem where solutions take decades and must be tailored to each scenario. But what can be addressed now is the engine and exhaust sound levels. Some vehicles are loud because their engines are working hard, but many vehicles are loud because people (boys) want the…

> reducing the number of vehicles in use. But that’s a difficult problem

That's not a difficult problem (except in cases like sloped terrain etc.) - and the solutions are known and readily available. They are not even expensive, socially. The problem is:

1. Increasing awareness and understanding of the alternative and the solutions available to get there.

2. Translating public interest/will into political action by municipal administrative bodies.

3. Rearrangement of resources away from private expenditure on cars and their maintenance, and national expenditure on roads, into municipal (and perhaps national) expenditure on mass transit systems.

... and these problems, or at least their combination, is what's difficult.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#123

Post by pdimitar »

chrisldgk wrote: post #115
michaelteter wrote: post #84

There are two issues here. One is that we need to come up with comprehensive solutions for reducing the number of vehicles in use. But that’s a difficult problem where solutions take decades and must be tailored to each scenario. But what can be addressed now is the engine and exhaust sound levels. Some vehicles are loud because their engines are working hard, but many vehicles are loud because people (boys) want the…

I think you’re focusing on the wrong issue here. Engine noise nowadays is a lot less of a problem than tire noise, especially with cars going 50km/h+. Some cars are loud because people want them to be, most cars are loud because the noise the tires make when driving is loud, and that only gets worse the more cars you have around.

IMO you are both right at the same time, there were even studies published here on HN saying that background far-away engine noise is very harmful for the humans when we're exposed to it for prolonged periods of time.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#124

Post by darkteflon »

ehnto wrote: post #107
darkteflon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take your pick. There’s no special magic to Japanese cities. They’re dominated by traffic and construction, full stop. The air is filthy.

Well not all Japanese cities are the same, and it is unfair to categorize a megalopolis like Tokyo as one thing or another as it's too varied for that. While Tokyo does have no shortage of highways and cars they do have plenty of mixed zone medium density, walkable areas that are free from car noise. That is not a feature of any part of most US cities except maybe the CBD. It is also much more uncommon to find stroad…

Sure, smaller cities are better than big cities. Less dense cities are better than denser cities. All else held equal.

The neighbourhoods you’re referring to - walkable areas free from car noise - are open to the wealthy only. The absolute vast majority of people in Tokyo live with constant traffic noise and terrible air quality. Not to mention cramped living conditions.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#126

Post by acdha »

llm_nerd wrote: post #20
throwaway22032 wrote: post #14

The anti car bias on HN is such a blind spot. Yes, lots of us work on computers and have metropolitan hobbies. Huge numbers of people don't. It's an empathy gap. Cars aren't worse or better, they're just different. You can't have NYC with LA's parking and you can't have LA with NYC's parking.

Discussing a topic rationally and openly isn't a bias, and I've seen no evidence that HN has an anti-car bias particularly. We dedicate a huge amount of the public space to personal vehicles, and it is the sort of solution that basically creates its own problem, with the uptake of cars necessitating urban planning that make it necessary for an uptake in cars. Rinse and repeat. It should be possible to discuss this ra…

I’d also add the enormous expense: if you’re rich, sure, cars aren’t a concern but even middle class people are usually worried about payments & repairs, and loss of a reliable car is one of the most common ways people fall out of the middle class, not to mention everyone starting retirement with so much less money.

There are good parts, of course, but I think it’s very reasonable to ask whether we get a good value from something we collectively give up so much for.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#127

Post by kortex »

llm_nerd wrote: post #20
throwaway22032 wrote: post #14

The anti car bias on HN is such a blind spot. Yes, lots of us work on computers and have metropolitan hobbies. Huge numbers of people don't. It's an empathy gap. Cars aren't worse or better, they're just different. You can't have NYC with LA's parking and you can't have LA with NYC's parking.

Discussing a topic rationally and openly isn't a bias, and I've seen no evidence that HN has an anti-car bias particularly. We dedicate a huge amount of the public space to personal vehicles, and it is the sort of solution that basically creates its own problem, with the uptake of cars necessitating urban planning that make it necessary for an uptake in cars. Rinse and repeat. It should be possible to discuss this ra…

I think the blind spot and empath gap gp is referring to is the attitude of the anti-car crowd. I had this just yesterday in another thread. The attitude of many city folks toward suburbanites is basically "have you considered radically changing your lifestyle, abandoning most of your existing habits and hobbies, and petition your town to put in bike infra where zero room to do so exists?"

They fail to realize that huge swaths of America is pretty much permanently stuck with pedestrian-unfriendly infrastructure.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#128

Post by rypskar »

api wrote: post #42
lynx23 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was very excited about EVs reducing the noise level in my city. Until I realized that most of the noise of a modern car actually comes from the tires. There sin't much difference between a modern non-EV car and an EV, sadly.

I wonder if there are low noise tire tread designs? Of course there are probably trade offs. Snow tires are known to be louder than the tires you use in climates that don’t get snow.

>Snow tires are known to be louder

Studded snow tires are louder than other tires, snow tires without studs are softer than normal tires so less noise. Modern snow tires without studs are surprisingly good on ice, which is the only place studded tires can compete.

Noise levels is one of the things tires are rated by, but a quiet tire would normally require a softer compound and softer compound wears out faster than harder tires

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#129

Post by djaychela »

api wrote: post #42
lynx23 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was very excited about EVs reducing the noise level in my city. Until I realized that most of the noise of a modern car actually comes from the tires. There sin't much difference between a modern non-EV car and an EV, sadly.

I wonder if there are low noise tire tread designs? Of course there are probably trade offs. Snow tires are known to be louder than the tires you use in climates that don’t get snow.

Yes there are - new tyres are rated in the EU (and still used in the UK) for noise, as well as wet grip and fuel efficiency. [1]

[1] - https://www.kwik-fit.com/tyres/information/tyre-labelling

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#130

Post by david-gpu »

phpisthebest wrote: post #76
david-gpu wrote: post #17

I live in a high-rise condo next to a six-lane stroad that was even showcased on this YouTube channel and the 24/7 traffic noise is annoying, particularly when you want to go for a walk and can't even hold a conversation. This didn't happen in the places where I lived back in Europe because zoning laws were different. Instead of the sprawl of freehold single family homes separate from a dense urban core, these much q…

>>This means people can live within walking distance to where they work and where they shop, so they do just that: walk through quiet streets, often surrounded with trees. it would take more than changing zoning laws for that, as I understand changing jobs and such is not as common in these locations as well. If you are changing jobs every couple of years having to find a home in the same neighborhood as your new job…

> Also I prefer not be limited in my shopping choices just to the single shop that happens to be in my building or on my block...

And I prefer not living with constant traffic noise and at risk of being run over every time I step outside. I prefer biking with my kid to his school, but we can't because the traffic makes it a suicidal idea. I also prefer to listen to birds when I walk to the shops nearby, but the traffic noise drowns them.

Yet, here we are.

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