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The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

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Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#61

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

tmnstr85 wrote: post #34

I am going through something right now mentally as a middle aged man and being alone every day starting at 8:30am and only coming home to the same 3 people (who i love unconditionally) is kind of driving me mad. My professional life prior to covid had me weaving the halls of an office I knew and many of the people there were very special to me. To have none of that these days leaves my mind to be pre-occupied by thin…

> To have none of that these days leaves my mind to be pre-occupied by things hard to escape.

So don't escape them. Go to therapy and work out why going home to your family is driving you crazy. (Hint: it's not a lack of office banter)

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#62

Post by confoundcofound »

The ultimate problem is a pervasive lack of meaning in today’s society. The cowboys of the past lived to fulfill a larger purpose: freedom, community service & prosperity, and unity with God.

Today, the wells of purpose have dried up. Economic prosperity feels out of reach for many, social media has turbocharged narcissism, corporations have reduced service workers to automatons, we’ve spent decades ignoring the importance of the family unit and telling people religion is stupid without at least giving them an alternative.

People aren’t lonely, they’re purposeless.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#63

Post by AdrianB1 »

rqtwteye wrote: post #23
munk-a wrote: post #5

The modern version of the American dream is an extremely toxic ideology. It promotes such an extreme version of individualism that it's threatening to tear apart all the social safety nets still existent in the US while also glorifying excessive wealth hoarding. It is absolutely bonkers that we've gotten to the point where cheating on your taxes can be viewed as a virtue.

It probably started with shareholder value when companies they declared that their only responsibility is to make as much money as possible. This ideology is very appealing to sociopaths so now they dominate.

You are saying this started 3-400 years ago? Then why is it visible just now?

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#64

Post by qgin »

tmnstr85 wrote: post #34

I am going through something right now mentally as a middle aged man and being alone every day starting at 8:30am and only coming home to the same 3 people (who i love unconditionally) is kind of driving me mad. My professional life prior to covid had me weaving the halls of an office I knew and many of the people there were very special to me. To have none of that these days leaves my mind to be pre-occupied by thin…

Often in threads about loneliness, especially Ask HN threads about how to connect with people, there are some extremely terse replies to the effect of "Get married; have a family." And while I support doing that 100%, it is not the trivial solution for loneliness or lack of community. Connection to a world outside your house is an extremely important thing.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#65

Post by munk-a »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #55
munk-a wrote: post #5

The modern version of the American dream is an extremely toxic ideology. It promotes such an extreme version of individualism that it's threatening to tear apart all the social safety nets still existent in the US while also glorifying excessive wealth hoarding. It is absolutely bonkers that we've gotten to the point where cheating on your taxes can be viewed as a virtue.

Extreme individualism does not explain in any way high taxes and redistribution (benefits, food stamps, high tax returns to low income families). Extreme individualism would be low taxes and zero social benefits. Loneliness and individualism are not the same. Loneliness has other causes, like eroding the idea of family, court system that punishes marriage (at 50% divorce rate), promiscuity (most apps like Tinder are…

US taxes are actually currently extremely low - in the 90's the top marginal tax rate dipped below 50% for the first time in five decades and now it's gotten all the way down to 37%[1]. That's just for income and a lot of wealthy individuals end up paying the majority of their taxes as capital gains but the other change that's harder to quantify is that our tax code has slowly become a swiss cheese mess of loopholes and exemptions that drastically lowered the effective tax rate.

The causes of loneliness in particular are more hard to trace - culture definitely drive a fair amount of that but we're also dealing with far more isolating technological factors - I don't feel particularly qualified to comment on that portion so I'll just leave it at that.

1. https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/60868250060...

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#66

Post by jltsiren »

valianteffort wrote: post #16
tokyolights2 wrote: post #3

I spend so much of my time intentionally trying to cultivate community. In some respects, it is the over-arching theme of my adult life. I find community is very hard to come by so if I have to be the one to make it, so be it. I pay a pretty penny to be a member of a coworking space so I don't spend my workday alone. Three times per week I go to regularly-scheduled events (a game night, running club, and roller-skati…

Greatest decision I ever made was getting a remote gig, leaving the big city, and moving to a small town. There is enough going on here to keep busy, and everyone knows eachother. Would never dream of raising my kids somewhere like SF. If you want community, go somewhere it's valued. Everyone in the big city is a transient, only there to make money and find love before it's time to head for the suburbs.

Cities have traditionally been about two things: opportunities and freedom. For many the freedom is more important of the two. It means the freedom to be anonymous, the freedom to choose your own community, and the freedom to live your own life.

Small towns come with a default community, because everyone knows everyone. It's great if you fit in, and terrible if you don't. Many people move to cities primarily to escape that community.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#67

Post by zoklet-enjoyer »

NERD_ALERT wrote: post #9
zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It appears that way when the richest people in the country are able to avoid them and bribe politicians to use the working class tax dollars to bail them out every time their risky behavior causes problems. When it’s actually used to properly fund public services we spend less money for better services at the end of the day.

Taxes are used to bail out the rich and murder and imprison the poor. And a little bit spent on infrastructure.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#68

Post by hiatus »

atak1 wrote: post #35
tokyolights2 wrote: post #3

I spend so much of my time intentionally trying to cultivate community. In some respects, it is the over-arching theme of my adult life. I find community is very hard to come by so if I have to be the one to make it, so be it. I pay a pretty penny to be a member of a coworking space so I don't spend my workday alone. Three times per week I go to regularly-scheduled events (a game night, running club, and roller-skati…

Love your response to this :) came to the same conclusion. I do think friendships are getting "faster" and community "easier" to build - hopefully the next wave of friendships can be made faster & with fewer mental cycles.

This comment reminded me of how quickly children can become friends. It's funny what we can do when we come to the table without any expectation of one another.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#69

Post by krapp »

dhbradshaw wrote: post #2

Interestingly, cowboys didn't work alone. They had teams of real people that they had to work with and trust along with their horses and the cows themselves. Even homesteaders would typically pull together for building, digging, playing, dancing, harvesting and more. The west was colonized by people with active social lives working together and depending on each other.

Yeah, the modern idea of the frontiersman as a rugged individualist who answered to no law but God in his heart and the gun at his hip is a fantasy, like the noble knight or honorable samurai. Actual cowboys weren't nomads because their fierce independent spirit couldn't be tamed by society and its rules, but because their job was moving herds of cattle from place to place and of course they didn't do it alone.

And many of them weren't even white - "buckaroo" is a corruption of the Spanish vaquero. But you wouldn't know any of that from any American cowboy movie or tv show.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#70

Post by AdrianB1 »

munk-a wrote: post #65
AdrianB1 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extreme individualism does not explain in any way high taxes and redistribution (benefits, food stamps, high tax returns to low income families). Extreme individualism would be low taxes and zero social benefits. Loneliness and individualism are not the same. Loneliness has other causes, like eroding the idea of family, court system that punishes marriage (at 50% divorce rate), promiscuity (most apps like Tinder are…

US taxes are actually currently extremely low - in the 90's the top marginal tax rate dipped below 50% for the first time in five decades and now it's gotten all the way down to 37%[1]. That's just for income and a lot of wealthy individuals end up paying the majority of their taxes as capital gains but the other change that's harder to quantify is that our tax code has slowly become a swiss cheese mess of loopholes…

US taxes used to be zero most of the existence of US. Compared to most countries, US taxes are high. California has total taxes higher than a few European countries, so when we talk about high taxes this is the context(perspective) for me.

As for loneliness, my generation and part of the world (Eastern Europe) does not encounter it. I see it in the newer generations, for example people around 20 years old are extremely lonely even here compared to my generation or my parents' generation, but the decline started with my parents, it was fairly small in mine and jumped dramatically in the past 10 years. Looking at the causes, I found the list that I enumerated earlier.

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