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Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#181

Post by ramblerman »

malauxyeux wrote: post #139
flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

Maybe not even having kids, but being engaged in something fully. From neuroscience, there's the default mode network. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network > It is best known for being active when a person is not focused on the outside world and the brain is at wakeful rest, such as during daydreaming and mind-wandering. Apparently, activation of the DMN is correlated to rumination, itself correlated to…

I guess there was something in the old proverb.

“Idle hands are the devils workshop”.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#182

Post by makeitdouble »

m463 wrote: post #159
makeitdouble wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel we have "depression" the same way we get "colds", try to rest hoping it goes away. Most of the time it does, and sometimes it's something else completely, but in contrast to colds, we have no good tool to properly diagnose the exact illnesses, and are probably lumping together myriads of different things under the "depression" umbrella. That also matches how treatment for depression often involves throwing spa…

> I feel we have "depression" the same way we get "colds", try to rest hoping it goes away. There's lots of evidence that doing the opposite of rest - aerobically exercising - helps tremendously with depression (and lots of other issues).

I meant "rest" in respect to work. In many countries a letter from a doctor certifying a depression diagnostic means a month to several months of mandatory leave.

It usually comes with medical followup and regular checkups, and the general advice I heard was to take peaceful walks, or simply going outside, and cut ties from the environment where the issue rose from for a while.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#183

Post by bb101 »

aszantu wrote: post #60

Don't know who needs to hear this. I started a food diary after an elimination diet which restored my energy levels. I don't know the reasons, but you're looking in a time window of four-seven days. When I stray from my diet (meat and water) one day. I become mentally unstable after 4 days. It says for 3 day, then gets good again. Crying for no reason, ruminating, poor sleep, strong sour smell that can't seem to be r…

Interesting. A real life example of latency and half-life[1].

[1] https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2023/04/25/n1-latency-and-half...

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#184

Post by intelVISA »

bendbro wrote: post #123
flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

I agree, I wonder if depression is not always rooted in some random, mental problem but rather a reasonable reaction to reality.

Do you blame the bug or the debugger then?

Given the general tech-dystopian living conditions and % distribution of non-free software throughout the population: depression would be near universal if this was truly the case.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#185

Post by levi_n »

I have ADHD, major depression, and I did 8 weeks of TMS therapy last year. In the end it did help my depression some, but it isn't a night-and-day difference.

It did, however, completely change how I see myself, to the point where I feel disconnected and separate from the person in my memory. Likewise, my sense of empathy and how I few the world is completely different, for the better.

I plan to do another round this summer.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#186

Post by levi_n »

JohnMakin wrote: post #6

Unfortunately, TMS is extremely expensive and not likely to be covered by most insurance plans. Even with a decent PPO, I was quoted about $1k a treatment and they said I needed at minimum 30 treatments.

I paid ~$2k (with insurance) for 8 weeks of therapy, with one 45 minute session every weekday.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#187

Post by igravious »

kypro wrote: post #35

I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way. There have been few days in my adult life that I wouldn't have preferred to not be here. Depression sucks. Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed. I hear that some people feel their depression shouldn't be there and that they should feel happy, and in those cases I think this sounds like it could be an excellent solution,…

> Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed.

Ah, I get the point you're making, but that's not what the article said/meant, is it?

“When they analyzed fMRI data across the whole brain, one connection stood out. In the normal brain, the anterior insula, a region that integrates bodily sensations, sends signals to a region that governs emotions, the anterior cingulate cortex.

“You could think of it as the anterior cingulate cortex receiving this information about the body — like heart rate or temperature — and then deciding how to feel on the basis of all these signals,” Mitra said.

In three-quarters of the participants with depression, however, the typical flow of activity was reversed: The anterior cingulate cortex sent signals to the anterior insula. The more severe the depression, the higher the proportion of signals that traveled the wrong way.”

Wrong here means reversed from the norm. As in, it's not logical to argue that the mood should precede the telemetry, is it? The flow of information going the other way makes little sense from a bio-mechanistic viewpoint. That's why it's "wrong". The article makes no other judgement about (major) depression. And arguably, as we all know, it is correct to have reactive depression if some awful thing befalls us.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#188

Post by igravious »

poorbutdebtfree wrote: post #49

Is depression a first world problem? Maybe if we can send over our highly trained and effective therapists to the third world we'd find that 95% are depressed too. It'd make depression much easier to deal with if we knew everybody had it regardless of qualify of life issues.

No, depression is not limited to any specific region or socioeconomic group.

Why would you think that it is?

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#189

Post by imtringued »

eastof wrote: post #130
throitallaway wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find most troubling is how resources and power get concentrated in hands of the few, and the rest of us (99%+ of the population) are left to deal with the consequences. The few laws that do exist to prevent benefiting parties from raping and pillaging the earth and society at large are slaps on the wrist at best. The default is to toe the line and/or overstep legality and morality. That's what's so depressing…

I commented about this above since this type of thinking is what I see most commonly in my anxious/depressed friends. Really think on it deeply for a bit and you'll realize this belief can't possibly be justified rationally. Who are you to say that resources and power shouldn't be concentrated in the 1%? You say they overstep morality? That's your morality and you can't defend it rationally (no one can). Plus you can…

>Who are you to say that resources and power shouldn't be concentrated in the 1%? You say they overstep morality? That's your morality and you can't defend it rationally (no one can).

As someone who is interested in a rational solution. I call this bullshit. There are thermodynamic reasons why it makes no sense. Even neoclassical models don't model capitalism i.e. they predict its absence.

>Plus you can't change these things anyway, so you have no moral responsibility to do so (my morality).

Wrong, it is possible to change these things in fact, it is even possible to earn money in the process. There are small and big steps that can be taken in this direction. There is no need to act helpless in the face of these things. I don't give a damn about the learned helplessness called "anti reformism" of Marxists and capitalists.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#190

Post by lethologica »

q845712 wrote: post #39
radicaldreamer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are effective alternatives which are a fraction of the cost: ketamine (sublingual ~100mg every few days), psilocybin (free? cheap 2-3g ~4 weeks), rapamycin + ketamine also seems promising ( https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0644-9 ).

I was hoping you were going to link to a DIY tms, so i will: https://www.instructables.com/Transcranial-Magnetic-Stimulat... Note the disclaimers, especially "TOUCHING THE DEVICE WRONG DURING ASSEMBLY CAN INSTANTLY KILL YOU. THIS DEVICE COULD KILL YOU OR MAIM YOU OR BREAK YOUR MIND." However the other things you're posting are alternative chemical treatments. People with resistant depression have already tried the ap…

With a warning like that, it might be worth trying if you’re suicidal! Nothing to lose!

This is a joke of course…

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