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Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#31

disclaimer: I acknowledge depression as an illness and state of being. that being said, if you take someone who is objectively "not depressed" and apply these same depression treatments, what would happen? some state of euphoria? heightened mood? happiness? suppose that new state is now the normal state in which people are judged against. now, the before-mentioned person who was not depressed, may be considered depre…

Instead of imagining that it works like a number line and then observing that you can use induction, you could measure outcomes: suicide, suicidal ideation, quality of life, etc.

That puts a pretty reasonable lower bound on what is or isn't depressed. It is absolutely an altered state of mind, and an information processing disorder.

For anyone who might feel like "it's ok to be depressed", this is not a normal thought, and there is no normal amount of suicidal ideation. Seek professional help or strong social support; just ask for help anywhere it might exist (go to an emergency room and just have a seat if you must). If you aren't depressed, these thoughts literally don't happen, as strange as that may sound if you are in the thick of it.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#32

disclaimer: I acknowledge depression as an illness and state of being. that being said, if you take someone who is objectively "not depressed" and apply these same depression treatments, what would happen? some state of euphoria? heightened mood? happiness? suppose that new state is now the normal state in which people are judged against. now, the before-mentioned person who was not depressed, may be considered depre…

I would propose the following analogy as an answer:

1 - Person A has the flu

2 - Person B does not have the flu

3 - Person A treats the flu with rest, fluids and antiviral medications

If person B also rested, drank fluids and took antiviral medications, they would not become an unusually healthy person. Person B would not become the new normal.

What you're proposing is that it's OK to be sick. We treat every other form of illness with aggressive treatments. Depression is often ignored, poorly treated or treatment is inaccessible to many people due to cost.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#33

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

Spot on.

> Even when you understand it's wrong, or at least heavily negatively biased, fighting those interpretations feels like trying to swim upstream in a terrific current.

Achieving it still feels like the end of "A beautiful mind", where there are people hanging out in the room that are not there. They sound like they are they, they feel like they are, they smell familiar. But they are not real and will disappear some wonderful day, as they always do. So you just nod to them and go on with your live.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any of those are addictive actually

just because they're not chemically addictive doesn't mean they're not addictive. Weed isn't chemically addictive but plenty of people struggle with it nonetheless.

Weed is chemically addictive. Your endocannabinoid system is downregulated for weeks after heavy use. You get withdrawal symptoms which are alleviated by use.

I've never seen the phrase "chemically addictive" used by someone who knew what they were talking about. It's only used by people who don't understand that neurotransmitters are chemicals too. Stop spreading this BS distinction.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#35
I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way.

There have been few days in my adult life that I wouldn't have preferred to not be here. Depression sucks. Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed.

I hear that some people feel their depression shouldn't be there and that they should feel happy, and in those cases I think this sounds like it could be an excellent solution, but in my case (and I think others too) I could give you very well reasoned arguments for why I would prefer to not to be here and why I feel a sense of sadness as my default state. At least in my case I believe arguments for optimism are more wrong than my depression.

Interestingly, my girlfriend is the total opposite to me. She's the happiest person ever met and I often wonder why she isn't also considered to be suffering from some kind of mental defect – I guess in her case the signals must be moving the "right" way because obviously the "right" way to feel is happy 24/7 and prolonged sadness is "wrong".

I guess I always kinda liked the idea that any advanced intelligence would end up as some iteration of Marvin the Paranoid Android, since the logical conclusion should perhaps be that life is pointless and hard, so therefore why bother? Perhaps the "right" way for signals to travel is in the direction of depression and hopelessness.

Sorry I know this isn't really on topic and I sound like a complete downer. I'm certainly not trying to diminish this research. I've guess I've just always found it interesting how some people feel they can categorise mental states as "right" or "wrong".

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#36

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

That is what depression felt like to me as well. I’ve written a book about it, Can’t Be Trusted. It is a memoir about engineering, mental health, and aviation. Here is more information about me and my book: https://cantbetrusted.org/?page_id=262 As a laser engineer with an interest in computing, I think this book would be of interest to the tech community.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#37

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

This is one of the few times I've heard an accurate and concise description of what it feels like. I like the metaphor of the spiral wishingwell. The coin/ball represents the level of depression you sink into. The gravitational draw of the void makes the spiral go faster unless you figure out a way to pull out of it and the longer you wait the harder it is to pull out cause it's moving too quickly. So the trick becom…

The only way out is through. One way or another, once you reach the shore on the other side, the time spent in the water doesn't seem so bad anymore.

Just another perspective to lean on when understanding others.

Once you confront it in the most absolute sense, something akin to ego-death occurs, and you make a decision about whether it is worthwhile to continue.

Everything comes from and swings back to chaos. Embrace it and you will be free.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#38

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

That is what depression felt like to me as well. I’ve written a book about it, Can’t Be Trusted. It is a memoir about engineering, mental health, and aviation. Here is more information about me and my book: https://cantbetrusted.org/?page_id=262 As a laser engineer with an interest in computing, I think this book would be of interest to the tech community.

Simply by posting it you'll get someone's attention (like myself!)

However you may get downvoted because you asked how to get upvoted, which can be counterintuitive if you're Neurodivergent (like many of us). It's ok, that's not how you intended it, but that is most likely not a helpful part of the message here.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#39

Unfortunately, TMS is extremely expensive and not likely to be covered by most insurance plans. Even with a decent PPO, I was quoted about $1k a treatment and they said I needed at minimum 30 treatments.

There are effective alternatives which are a fraction of the cost: ketamine (sublingual ~100mg every few days), psilocybin (free? cheap 2-3g ~4 weeks), rapamycin + ketamine also seems promising ( https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0644-9 ).

I was hoping you were going to link to a DIY tms, so i will: https://www.instructables.com/Transcranial-Magnetic-Stimulat...

Note the disclaimers, especially "TOUCHING THE DEVICE WRONG DURING ASSEMBLY CAN INSTANTLY KILL YOU. THIS DEVICE COULD KILL YOU OR MAIM YOU OR BREAK YOUR MIND."

However the other things you're posting are alternative chemical treatments. People with resistant depression have already tried the approved chemical remedies. While I broadly agree that there's evidence in favor of both psilocybin and ketamine being potent chemical anti-depressants, I also think there's a number of valid reasons for someone to reach a point where they don't want to try any other chemical remedies, and ECT / TMS become more compelling options.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any of those are addictive actually

just because they're not chemically addictive doesn't mean they're not addictive. Weed isn't chemically addictive but plenty of people struggle with it nonetheless.

Psilocybin’s addictive potential is limited to at least 1 week intervals since it would have no effect if taken more often.

Most people “addicted” wait much longer than that — sometimes months to make sure they have a strong trip and offset receptor down-regulation to the point where it can hardly be called an addiction.

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