I recently went through a round of rTMS and participated in a study that used EEG to attempt to find biomarkers for responders vs non-responders. This was largely based on previous findings that altered functional network activity in the brain (namely the default mode network) is correlated with depression in some people, and that EEG could relatively inexpensively detect functional network changes over the course of treatment. This study seems to follow a similar vein and I suspect we'll see more like it in the near future. I'm really glad to see more research being done with TMS - the particular protocol mentioned in this study (SAINT protocol) has had truly amazing success with 80-90% remission rate in already treatment-resistant individuals in a couple of studies. Even ECT, which is currently considered the most effective treatment for treatment-resistant depression, has only a 70-80% response/60% remission ("regular" rTMS is about 60% response/30% remission). The only problem is that SAINT requires fMRI which is expensive and complicated, on top of already expensive rTMS treatment. Hopefully as more research is done it'll become more accessible, personally it was very helpful for me in overcoming many years of intractable depression.
Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
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Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#102My son, who is diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, depression, and OCD, and who has been in talk therapy, on SSRIs, and other interventions for years, recently started LENS therapy, also called neurofeedback. (I'm on mobile device, otherwise I'd find the link.) It sounds a lot like a form of TMS.
He's had something like 7 sessions, each lasting maybe 15 minutes. The results are nothing short of astounding for our family. He's typically been... Extremely difficult to parent. After his LENS, lasting about a week, he is a pretty happy kid who participates in family and social life. His anxiety previously prevented him from engaging with friends for more than an hour. Just the other day, he was out at a birthday party for eight hours and still cheerful afterward.
I'm very hopeful that there is a long term, lasting effect for this kind of thing.
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
This line of reasoning reminds me of a common misunderstanding of depression I've seen from people who've never been clinically depressed (1). It's an understandable mistake, albeit potentially dangerous (2). Depression isn't on the happiness-sadness scale. It's quite tangential to that. In fact, perhaps quizzically, you can be happy and depressed. It's fairly common for people who learn about the loss of a loved one…
The point I was trying to make isn’t about happiness or sadness per se, rather they depression has mental analogs that presumably are improved after treatment.
It doesn't need analogs. Depression is mental.
Legitimately what dialogue are you attempting to start?
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#104I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way. There have been few days in my adult life that I wouldn't have preferred to not be here. Depression sucks. Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed. I hear that some people feel their depression shouldn't be there and that they should feel happy, and in those cases I think this sounds like it could be an excellent solution,…
I have full sympathy for people dealing with depression but I don't think this logic holds. People who are depressed have suicidal ideations, suffer in quality of life and generally struggle to accomplish otherwise simple tasks. It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms. I think yo…
I'm not sure I agree with your use of "nominal", but if you're saying right means something like "typical" then I'm fine with that. I guess I'm not sure what "working as intended" or "nominally" would mean. If the "intention" of my emotions is to approximate my true state then they're doing that just fine. Why would they tell me the world is great when I don't believe that to be true?
> It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms.
Obviously I can only speak for myself but depression has manifested both as hyper-productivity and hyper-defeatism for me. I've never felt content so a lot of my life has been an endless struggle to just feel okay which made me unbelievably productive when I was younger and naive enough to think I could fix things.
It can be negative at times though, but my perspective on this that optimising for my own happiness is not an achievable goal. All I can do is optimise so that my suffering can be a net-positive for humanity and those I love. So although I might feel like I don't want to go on and I don't want to be productive I do because if I'm not productive or kill myself then I'm letting everyone down and my existence then truly was a net-negative both subjectively and objectively. I have to at least make this objectively positive.
So the reason optimising for other people's happiness is everything to me, is because my own means nothing. But that does get destructive when I'm letting people down because then I suddenly start trying to calculate if my life is a net positive to the world and things can go "bad" quick when convince myself I'm doing more harm than good.
I think I'm atypical to be fair, but I would argue my depression isn't objectively negative at all which is exactly why I put up with it.
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#105Very interesting, so it could be that depression is essentially a race condition in the brain.
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe I have some insight as someone who only recently made a breakthrough with lifelong on-and-off depression, and as someone who has had tons of therapeutic conversation (paid and otherwise). Once I finally realized that depression was something happening to me, literally an illness, and that it wasn't an intrinsic part of my personality, I sought medication. That medication had a near-immediate effect of makin…
what medication did you use? I am on the waiting list for controlled shrooms. Also you are not alone. Depression runs in my family (mother side) it is a rollercoaster. I have found drone flying FPV to be relaxing. But yeah, hang in there. The world is a better place with you, do not give up.
Wish I lived in a state that would let me use psilocybin! I first tried bupropion, and now I take a smaller dose of that + fluoxetine. I suspect the bupropion is superfluous at this point but I'm making slow, controlled changes.
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#107disclaimer: I acknowledge depression as an illness and state of being. that being said, if you take someone who is objectively "not depressed" and apply these same depression treatments, what would happen? some state of euphoria? heightened mood? happiness? suppose that new state is now the normal state in which people are judged against. now, the before-mentioned person who was not depressed, may be considered depre…
It’s ok if it isn’t purposeless suffering which clinical depression most certainly is. Having an occasional low mood or a temporary bout of depression due to a bad event is ok because it is informing you that something bad has happened and maybe you should retreat from normal life a bit to deal with it. Just being depressed all the time because your brain got messed up somehow is not a state anyone should be left in.
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#108My son, who is diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, depression, and OCD, and who has been in talk therapy, on SSRIs, and other interventions for years, recently started LENS therapy, also called neurofeedback. (I'm on mobile device, otherwise I'd find the link.) It sounds a lot like a form of TMS. He's had something like 7 sessions, each lasting maybe 15 minutes. The results are nothing short of astounding for our family. H…
That's wonderful that it's helped your son so much. I have done TMS and am curious about LENS for myself and family who have symptoms similar to what you shared. We too have tried most everything else and daily life is an absolute grind.
How many sessions did your son require and how long are the results expected to last?
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#109Really fascinating stuff. I immediately wonder if there is any explanation for this reversed flow of signals that might tie it into an evolutionary theory of depression e.g. the social withdrawal hypothesis - is the brain using less energy doing things this way?
Interesting thought. My mind went to the possibility that since they reversed signals are allowing your mood to determine how you feel physically that it might allow you to leverage a good mood to overcome negative signals from your body i.e. power through pain or exhaustion. Maybe it became maladaptive when more opportunity for rumination became available.
Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have full sympathy for people dealing with depression but I don't think this logic holds. People who are depressed have suicidal ideations, suffer in quality of life and generally struggle to accomplish otherwise simple tasks. It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms. I think yo…
I'm not sure I agree with your use of "nominal", but if you're saying right means something like "typical" then I'm fine with that. I guess I'm not sure what "working as intended" or "nominally" would mean. If the "intention" of my emotions is to approximate my true state then they're doing that just fine. Why would they tell me the world is great when I don't believe that to be true? > It is "wrong" in the sense tha…
Not OP but I view happiness as nominal because I get more done when I’m happy, I find it easier to take small failures in stride, I resonate more with other people and I just get more satisfaction out of life. If I’m feeling down then pretty much the opposite is true.
I don’t really feel like my emotions are representation if my mental state since they are a part of it as well as an influence on the more rational side. They also don’t correspond perfectly to the outside world, I can be cheerful even when things are objectively bad which lets me celebrate the small good things I can find in those situations. I can also feel terrible when things are going great sometimes but maybe that’s because I really should be doing something different.