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Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#41

Post by carabiner »

endisneigh wrote: post #21

disclaimer: I acknowledge depression as an illness and state of being. that being said, if you take someone who is objectively "not depressed" and apply these same depression treatments, what would happen? some state of euphoria? heightened mood? happiness? suppose that new state is now the normal state in which people are judged against. now, the before-mentioned person who was not depressed, may be considered depre…

> apply these same depression treatments, what would happen? some state of euphoria? heightened mood? happiness?

No, usually nothing happens which is why people don't bother abusing antidepressants. These aren't like cocaine or alcohol.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#42

Post by AndrewKemendo »

hanselot wrote: post #37
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I've heard an accurate and concise description of what it feels like. I like the metaphor of the spiral wishingwell. The coin/ball represents the level of depression you sink into. The gravitational draw of the void makes the spiral go faster unless you figure out a way to pull out of it and the longer you wait the harder it is to pull out cause it's moving too quickly. So the trick becom…

The only way out is through. One way or another, once you reach the shore on the other side, the time spent in the water doesn't seem so bad anymore. Just another perspective to lean on when understanding others. Once you confront it in the most absolute sense, something akin to ego-death occurs, and you make a decision about whether it is worthwhile to continue. Everything comes from and swings back to chaos. Embrac…

This definitely resonates with me as I've graduated into the state you describe and yes "the only way out is through" is exactly the way to describe the path.

Not sure I agree fully with the "time spent in the water" not seeming bad - I think I simply recognize it for what it was, while acknowledging the trauma and cascading effects that I'm unwinding 30+ years after the fact.

Perhaps you mean that you are no longer attached to the trauma and can view it "objectively"

More important to me now is unwinding the physical manifestations of trauma/anxiety that I never recognized as well as eliminating the behaviors (people pleasing, self deprecation etc...) that attract toxic attachment.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#43

Post by airstrike »

kypro wrote: post #35

I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way. There have been few days in my adult life that I wouldn't have preferred to not be here. Depression sucks. Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed. I hear that some people feel their depression shouldn't be there and that they should feel happy, and in those cases I think this sounds like it could be an excellent solution,…

I have full sympathy for people dealing with depression but I don't think this logic holds. People who are depressed have suicidal ideations, suffer in quality of life and generally struggle to accomplish otherwise simple tasks.

It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms.

I think you are attributing to the word "right" a sense of an obligation to feel happy, with "wrong" therefore being a deviation from that True Path, but I don't think that is the intended meaning when people use those words to describe depression.

I would argue that "right" in this context means something closer to "nominal", as in "working as intended". Nobody is faulting you (or me or others) for constantly feeling down.

I hope that helps.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#44

Post by radicaldreamer »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #18
rozularen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any of those are addictive actually

Ketamine is definitely addictive for a lot of people. Rapamycin isn't one I've heard of before, but it looks like a does-lots-of-things drug: Wikipedia says it's an immunosuppressant. I'd recommend against DIYing that for a different reason.

Ketamine at the doses prescribed for treating depression has low addictive potential.

The doses used recreationally are multiples of what is regimen for anti-depressive effects.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#45

Post by radicaldreamer »

q845712 wrote: post #39
radicaldreamer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are effective alternatives which are a fraction of the cost: ketamine (sublingual ~100mg every few days), psilocybin (free? cheap 2-3g ~4 weeks), rapamycin + ketamine also seems promising ( https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0644-9 ).

I was hoping you were going to link to a DIY tms, so i will: https://www.instructables.com/Transcranial-Magnetic-Stimulat... Note the disclaimers, especially "TOUCHING THE DEVICE WRONG DURING ASSEMBLY CAN INSTANTLY KILL YOU. THIS DEVICE COULD KILL YOU OR MAIM YOU OR BREAK YOUR MIND." However the other things you're posting are alternative chemical treatments. People with resistant depression have already tried the ap…

Wow, I didn’t even consider that there’s a DIY version of the equipment.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#46

Post by JohnMakin »

JohnMakin wrote: post #6

Unfortunately, TMS is extremely expensive and not likely to be covered by most insurance plans. Even with a decent PPO, I was quoted about $1k a treatment and they said I needed at minimum 30 treatments.

Another issue is that the effect doesn't seem to be permanent, and additional treatments as time goes on has been observed in people who show improvement from the treatment. So, I really hope it gets much cheaper.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#47

Post by tbalsam »

OptCohTomo wrote: post #36
asdfman123 wrote: post #5

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

That is what depression felt like to me as well. I’ve written a book about it, Can’t Be Trusted. It is a memoir about engineering, mental health, and aviation. Here is more information about me and my book: https://cantbetrusted.org/?page_id=262 As a laser engineer with an interest in computing, I think this book would be of interest to the tech community.

(and to add to the other comment too you can edit your comment so you don't get dinged for asking about upvotes! ;P

It seems very interesting. You can generally share how important it is to you within reason and that's pretty chill too.)

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#48

Post by johnfn »

endisneigh wrote: post #21

disclaimer: I acknowledge depression as an illness and state of being. that being said, if you take someone who is objectively "not depressed" and apply these same depression treatments, what would happen? some state of euphoria? heightened mood? happiness? suppose that new state is now the normal state in which people are judged against. now, the before-mentioned person who was not depressed, may be considered depre…

Analogously, what if we took someone who was already full, and then fed them food?

> what if it's ok to be depressed?

I dunno, what if it was _ok_ to be hungry? I don't think this question makes much sense.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#49

Post by poorbutdebtfree »

Is depression a first world problem? Maybe if we can send over our highly trained and effective therapists to the third world we'd find that 95% are depressed too. It'd make depression much easier to deal with if we knew everybody had it regardless of qualify of life issues.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#50

Post by jordan_curve »

endisneigh wrote: post #21

disclaimer: I acknowledge depression as an illness and state of being. that being said, if you take someone who is objectively "not depressed" and apply these same depression treatments, what would happen? some state of euphoria? heightened mood? happiness? suppose that new state is now the normal state in which people are judged against. now, the before-mentioned person who was not depressed, may be considered depre…

one common effect of SSRIs is that they can dull emotions. This is helpful and can be a positive effect if you are very depressed or get stuck in anxious spiraling.

If you're very stable and happy emotionally, then that dulling might be unpleasant.

Beyond that, while SSRIs tend to have fewer side effects and be more safe than many other classes of anti-depressants, even SSRIs have very noticeable side effects. They are very easy to stomach if they make a dramatic difference in your mood and quality of life, but if you were already mentally well the side effects will be more impactful than whatever benefits you might get.

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