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Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

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Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#251
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure if subsidizing a handful of industries avoids the problem of cost imbalances when trading globally. Say we subsidize corn because otherwise our corn industry would be decimated by cheap labor overseas. We successfully walled off one industry, but that cheaper foreign labor is still available for other production. Maybe workers that would be paid overseas to grow corn are instead paid to produce cheape…

I doubt it's expected to be holistic, and there's not much point tariffing a commodity you don't have a viable alternative locally such as oil; Autarky is unlikely to viable in the long run. Though chemical fertilizer is likely a common weak point for food security with many countries. But this is not a new problem, the US pacific island grab in the 1800s to source Guano shows how regenerating soil macro nutrients ha…

At one point not too long ago the US was producing up to 90% of our own oil supply, is that not the case anymore or am I misremembering that all together?

To clarify, I don't recall if that was actually kep in country or the net import/export comparison, we may have been making enough to cover something like 90% but exporting that overseas.

Anyway, 100% agree fertilizer has been a problem for a long time. As long as we treat food production as an broken loop where farms are dependant on outside resources rather than building sustainable farming systems we'll always be stuck trying to steal someone else's nutrients in the form of fertilizer.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mega farms already receive subsidies — why is that fine, but subsidizing a less damaging method not? Also, that’s what tariffs are for: food security is national security. Finally, the Dutch farmers currently having their farms seized seemed to be doing fine — except for political interference in the name of environmentalism. Why is that intervention fine, but supporting small farmers rather than mega corporations no…

> Mega farms already receive subsidies — why is that fine, but subsidizing a less damaging method not? It's fine and might be a solution to the problem but purposefully orienting subsidies towards something and putting tariffs in place are as far removed from "the natural outcome" as you can get. > Finally, the Dutch farmers currently having their farms seized seemed to be doing fine — except for political interferen…

I’m not in favor.

But the present situation is brought about by those very policies, where (eg) the Dutch government is seizing Dutch family farms as part of their Green Leap Forward — and you seem fine with that status quo. In fact, you’re out here saying we can’t change policy to protect family farms from such government intervention.

> Farming is not economically viable on a small scale without subsidies in Europe.

My point is that the collapse of small farms isn’t organic market forces, but government policy such as the Green Leap Forward expropriating them — and so it’s completely ridiculous to say we can’t change policy (eg, stop doing that) to help small farms.

Policy is the problem; why would changing it not be the solution?

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#253

Farming does a heck of a lot worse damage than 'a decline in bird populations'. What causes such decline in wild animal populations and causes damage to humans is that farming takes up all the available room driving both animals and humans away. I would rather see the farmer being free to sell their lands to housing developers or build on it instead of the current level of masochism with considerations like autarky a…

What do you think is going to happen if farmers start selling their land for building residences and offices? where do you think your food is going to come from? Corporate farms? do you seriously think corporate farms are going to be carrying more for the environment than farming families?

I think they might actually now that you mentioned it. In the same way h&m has a better policy than most locally owned clothing stores. Families typically face immense pressure to only think about the short term. But it wasn't what I was thinking of.

But like I said the food produced by land that is urbanized would have to be imported. But that is not a bad thing. It will be very good for developing nations.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#254

Farming does a heck of a lot worse damage than 'a decline in bird populations'. What causes such decline in wild animal populations and causes damage to humans is that farming takes up all the available room driving both animals and humans away. I would rather see the farmer being free to sell their lands to housing developers or build on it instead of the current level of masochism with considerations like autarky a…

"Man – despite his artistic pretensions, his sophistication and his many accomplishments – owes his existence to a 6-inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains." I'd hesitate to be flippant about the complexities and difficulties in the generation of food, and the market forces that it drives. And I'd certainly hesitate to claim that anyone has "better things to do".

As fancy as it is to use fancy phrases, the lecturing tone here is not matched by any substance. The argument boils down to an appeal to authority followed by a personal attack.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#255
post #3

There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. The standard approach in the EU to work against this really worrying trend is to a) bring more and more land under some form of protection and remove it from agricultural production and b) increase the share o…

Will reducing fertilizers and other chemicals help in any meaningful way ? It seems the main problem is that birds, the things bird eats, and for that matter other animals need a place to live, and there's really not a lot of places for them to live anymore when their habitat is turned from a natural environment, quite often forests, in to roads, cities, production of cereal, grass, vegetable etc.

Much of our current bird population (at least in central Europe) has co-evolved with agriculture over thousands of years. The problem is not so much that there is agriculture happening, it is the scale and destructiveness of the industrialized agriculture that has become the norm. Fields that are literally several square kilometers large without any intersecting hedges or other habitats. Machines that pick up every last grain of wheat and turn soil up to a large depth, effectively sterilizing it of beneficial soil live. Pesticides and herbicides that kill off the basis for entire ecosystems.

We need to develop an agricultural system that can financially sustain itself within smaller structures, that incorporates edges and diversity, that utilizes ecological services instead of trying to suppress natural processes.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think is going to happen if farmers start selling their land for building residences and offices? where do you think your food is going to come from? Corporate farms? do you seriously think corporate farms are going to be carrying more for the environment than farming families?

I think they might actually now that you mentioned it. In the same way h&m has a better policy than most locally owned clothing stores. Families typically face immense pressure to only think about the short term. But it wasn't what I was thinking of. But like I said the food produced by land that is urbanized would have to be imported. But that is not a bad thing. It will be very good for developing nations.

Not producing food locally and being dependent on imports for even basic food supplies is actually even more dangerous than being dependent on other countries for stuff such as electricity. Plus consider the huge amount of energy needed to transport food crops across the globe.

Another question worth thinking about - what landscape pollutes the air/water/land more? is it farm land or the cities?

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems nuts to me. Keeping a cat in an apartment its entire life is psychological torture and almost all the indoor only cats I've ever met are neurotic. If you don't want to let your cat move freely, I suggest just not having one.

What do you consider neurotic in a cat? Have you known many people who own outdoor cats? It's a rare story that doesn't end with "then an asshole in a truck ran him down", "I think a coyote got him", "I think a hawk got him", "I never saw him again", "the neighborhood kids were chasing him with sticks", "found him nearly starved and bleeding", "lost a fight to a dog", or one of many other terrible ways to go. Every o…

Everyone and everything dies. You'd live longer in captivity too.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#258
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece has lots of land that's either too steep for humans to walk on, or too rocky to grow anything but grass on, or both. As a result, traditional Greek cuisine has lots of lamb and goat meat.

Pag in Croatia too ... it's called "island of paski cheese" iirc ... it's mostly rocky desert with patches of grass and herds of islands and goats, but leave the island and suddenly the landscape is green and lush. "Historically, Pag had more forested areas than it does today. The island used to be covered with oak and pine forests, but due to centuries of human activity, including grazing, deforestation, and the col…

> The land is rocky to grow anything on exactly because of those lambs and goats.

Are you suggesting that ruminants transport rocks to the site?

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece has lots of land that's either too steep for humans to walk on, or too rocky to grow anything but grass on, or both. As a result, traditional Greek cuisine has lots of lamb and goat meat.

And what would be there if we didn't have sheep and goats there?

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Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you consider neurotic in a cat? Have you known many people who own outdoor cats? It's a rare story that doesn't end with "then an asshole in a truck ran him down", "I think a coyote got him", "I think a hawk got him", "I never saw him again", "the neighborhood kids were chasing him with sticks", "found him nearly starved and bleeding", "lost a fight to a dog", or one of many other terrible ways to go. Every o…

Everyone and everything dies. You'd live longer in captivity too.

What behaviors of indoor cats do you define as neurotic?
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