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Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

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Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#111

Post by CalRobert »

danielheath wrote: post #66
CalRobert wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pasture farming on marginal land is part of the solution" Can you elaborate? I don't see how this is superior to leaving it fallow? I have a few acres fallow and am right next to a quaint organic farm and I do see quite a few more bees in my tall grass and wildflowers than I do in their grazed land...

Greece has lots of land that's either too steep for humans to walk on, or too rocky to grow anything but grass on, or both. As a result, traditional Greek cuisine has lots of lamb and goat meat.

And what would be there if we didn't have sheep and goats there?

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#112

Post by CalRobert »

a_c wrote: post #59
CalRobert wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pasture farming on marginal land is part of the solution" Can you elaborate? I don't see how this is superior to leaving it fallow? I have a few acres fallow and am right next to a quaint organic farm and I do see quite a few more bees in my tall grass and wildflowers than I do in their grazed land...

Lands are not equal. They all have different conditions. Some land for example can't grow food but is good for grazing. Grazing, done correctly, is beneficial to the land too. E.g. grazing brings dungs to the land. The dungs give nutrients to both plants and insects. Stamping the land aerate the soil and exposes insect for birds, hence limiting pest. Birds spread seeds. Everything is in balance. Food is ultimately cr…

I don't understand how that shows human involvement in these landscapes is necessary.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#113

Post by bainsfather »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #92
pvaldes wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big plot hole in this master plan that many people apparently can't see or accept. If we remove the production of meat, this will severely harm the production of vegetables. They are connected. You can't have real agriculture without manure. Fossil guano is a finite, scarce and very expensive resource, and human manure is not so desirable as replacement by several reasons so, how do they expect to feed their gree…

This is plainly not accurate - manure from most aninals, especially pig farms, is a hazardous easte to dispose of. Only a small percentage of manure is reused as fertiliser because transporting it is expensive, and messy. Often it needs to be processed before it can be used safely. You can gooogle 'industrial farm US' and see pictures of ani als standing knee deep in their own poop. Also it is illegal to take photos…

None of our animals' waste is any hazard to you, unless you slip on it!

You are right that it can be done badly, as can many other things. I'd say you are actually arguing against badly regulated animal farming (especially since you mention the US), rather than animal farming per se.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#114

Post by ClumsyPilot »

nforgerit wrote: post #27

IIRC EUs farming regulations stem from 60s/70s and their only adaptations were intensification and market concentration. Some decade ago the sister of a small German farmer told me how EU laws were systematically pushing him out of the market forcing him to sell his ground to bigger competitors to avoid going bankrupt. You reap what you sow I guess

I am not sure EU is the culprit.

Firstly, EU has some of the smallest average farm size in developed economies - below 50 hectares, USA is close to 500.

Secondly, the concerns around machines dominate farming. For exanple many studies have shown effectiveness of multicripping - growing severage different crips together. This will never take off, because muticropping fields are unharvestable - harvesters are specialised for grains, potatoes, etc. While they are hacesting one, they would damage / destroy another.

Machine have become much larger, more sophisticared and more expensive. So many farmers don't own all the machines, they rent them or pay someome to d perform a job on their fields.

Lastly, if you eant a decent existance, you need to generate enough revenue from your farm. Farms below 50cha can hardly support a family with the revenue they generate.

The only way to save small farms is for them to diversify income - I knew a few farmers that installed wind turbines, etc. However UK planning system makes it impossible to get permission for a win turbine. In the past 5 years there were like 2 permissions given for any time of wind turbine in all of UK

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#115

Post by flagrant_taco »

cjrp wrote: post #77
CrampusDestrus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agriculture is subsidized to get the farmers' vote

It’s really not. Without subsidies, farms could not exist; we simply don’t pay enough for produce to keep them running. You could argue that subsidies are to keep the public onside. If you were the party who removed subsidies (and increased food prices by 50%), it would be political suicide.

I've never quite followed the math on this argument for subsidies. Government subsidies are still payed by us, the money is funneled through taxes and government budgets but it's not like a subsidy appears out of thin air.

This is also does in the face of free markets. If we keep process artificially low we won't see any explanation in production. That keeps prices high and sticks us in a loop where we need subsidies because prices are too high and can't reduce price because there's no market incentive.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#116

Post by earlyriser »

bitL wrote: post #99
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is plainly not accurate - manure from most aninals, especially pig farms, is a hazardous easte to dispose of. Only a small percentage of manure is reused as fertiliser because transporting it is expensive, and messy. Often it needs to be processed before it can be used safely. You can gooogle 'industrial farm US' and see pictures of ani als standing knee deep in their own poop. Also it is illegal to take photos…

Some people can only eat meat due to autoimmune issues exacerbated by vegetables. Are we going to sacrifice them?

"eating less meat" != "sacrifice them"

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#117

Post by brvsft »

megablast wrote: post #28
nforgerit wrote: post #27

IIRC EUs farming regulations stem from 60s/70s and their only adaptations were intensification and market concentration. Some decade ago the sister of a small German farmer told me how EU laws were systematically pushing him out of the market forcing him to sell his ground to bigger competitors to avoid going bankrupt. You reap what you sow I guess

Farmers have always been making excuses why they failed.

Did you mistake farmers for bankers?

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#118

Post by myshpa »

nologic01 wrote: post #15

Birds had smart enough DNA to outlast the dinosaur era and conquer the sky but I wonder if they have smart enough DNA to survive the mammalian pest that has been unleashed on the planet.

Don't forget that elimination of sparrows in some regions in China led to a famine with millions dead.

Elimination of bird predators like owls and hawks (caused by destruction of their environment and poisons by bad agriculture practices) leads to mice infestations.

Civilizations can only function if they don't destroy their ecosystems. We have enough warning examples in the past, let's hope we'll be smarter this time.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#119

Post by VBprogrammer »

raptorraver wrote: post #57
mkmk3 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that permacultural practices can compete in terms of output, it's just harder to industrialize. I wonder if improvements in robotics could make this sort of approach more feasible, or if it really is comparatively productive in any case

Joel Salatin and Richard Perkins (among many many others) have done great work by applying permaculture principles to farm scale. The ”movement” is called regenerative agriculture but you can also find lots of bullshit under that term (ie. Monsanto has used that term in their marketing)

While I have a lot of time for those people (Gabe Brown is well worth adding to that list). I fear that for the most part those people are successful by selling the dream of better quality produce to people with the disposable income to afford to buy it, mostly direct to consumer. I suspect there isn't enough space in this market place for every farmer.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#120

Post by AbsoluteCabbage »

Is “farming to blame”, or is farming being blamed to suit an agenda?

Don’t push ridiculous articles like this with zero factual evidence. What we put out to the world has real effects- especially dangerous rhetoric like this that incites the left side of the Bell curve into a frenzy.

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