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Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

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41–50 of 95 posts

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your approach is personal insult then I can see why it isn’t that well received. To answer your question, though, I was saying I feel I have had success raising disagreements and didn’t ask for or particularly want to read something explaining to me why I should ignore over a decade of my own experience. Hey maybe I’m just really dull like you suggest.

If you really want to call in the tone police on this: My initial comment was reacting to the article saying "This doesn't match my experience" in which I've simultaneously made myself vulnerable to ad-hominem attack because it was implying that my career wasn't going so well. And your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of pe…

> your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of person who has experience X, you're probably the sort of person who would make mistake Y."

No. No one said that. Don't make up quotes.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, liberal arts is valuable, but the degree isn't. I've seen plenty of programmers who are very educated in history, philosophy, economics etc. The problem with the actual degree. 1. Liberal arts degrees have terrible economic returns, almost always negative, especially for men. Because... 2. Liberal arts is ill-suited for mass-market higher education. Can you really teach liberal arts with underpaid teach assistant…

> The degree introduces indoctrination. I have yet to hear a principled distinction between "education" and "indoctrination" that doesn't boil down to whether the speaker agrees with the content being taught.

Here's a definition of indoctrination: the country is split nearly 50-50 on political issues, but 99-100% of faculty is in only one of those two camps

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried many times, with many different approaches and many different people over the course of a 20-year career. The variation in outcomes was absolutely zero. To anyone who wants to believe that bosses are fundamentally capable of tolerating independent thought among their underlings, I would recommend the book "Disciplined Minds" by Jeff Schmidt [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Disciplined-Minds-Critical-Profess…

Yes, bosses, in the end, don't really care. They'll "appreciate" it in their minds (in the manner of a process being completed) but then not do anything with it, because that's not their job. They exist to create confusion and order from it and anyone honest enough to be a Good boss is quickly dethroned. Thanks for the book recommendation!

I'm a "boss" of people that report to me and I oversee, and I certainly care and appreciate feedback and suggestions and criticism.

But that's where it ends. I am under no obligation to do what this subordinate wants or thinks is best. It isn't a democracy or a decision by committee when we have hierarchical structures in place. You give your best advice, suggestions, opinions and recommendations...and then it's up to the leader to make a decision; wrong or right. That's leadership.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#44

This career advice sounds more like what someone would say who asked themselves "Hmm... What sort of career advice would make me look good if I gave it?" It having anything to do with his actual experiences, beliefs, and opinions seems kind of optional.

> What sort of X advice would look good if I gave it? True for almost every public figure or anyone courting fame. It's all about appearances, not being useful.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess theoretically I could have had a career that's gone even better than the one I have had, but I haven't had any real problems with my approach so I think I'll stick with it.

Were you trying to say "My success proves me right"? Because the other reading is: You're not good at independent thinking, therefore you've never had those independent thoughts that made your bosses dislike you, and that explains why you had a good career. So, your success proves me right. Now enter into some introspection. Do you dislike me, now that I've suggested this? Or do I get brownie points from you for bein…

It's almost as though you're saying that offering contradictory advice to the boss is akin to arguing against the orthodoxy on HN.

Your moderation score is the wages of sin, son.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#46

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it. My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal…

I've never had a problem doing this

sometimes they don't agree, and that's fine

maybe it's your approach

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#47
> if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me

Summarizing the rest of the comments: "No good deed goes unpunished."

However, "tell" takes many forms. One point I like to make is that I'll dig in on a substantive technical point, but strive not to bikeshed technical questions.

Package the feedback as a question: "I'm not seeing the motive for using a JSON database when we're really going to need an RDBMS," rather than "This idea is stuck in foopid."

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#48
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, bosses, in the end, don't really care. They'll "appreciate" it in their minds (in the manner of a process being completed) but then not do anything with it, because that's not their job. They exist to create confusion and order from it and anyone honest enough to be a Good boss is quickly dethroned. Thanks for the book recommendation!

I'm a "boss" of people that report to me and I oversee, and I certainly care and appreciate feedback and suggestions and criticism. But that's where it ends. I am under no obligation to do what this subordinate wants or thinks is best. It isn't a democracy or a decision by committee when we have hierarchical structures in place. You give your best advice, suggestions, opinions and recommendations...and then it's up t…

The question is not so much whether you do as you're told by your subordinate but how you handle the "disagree-but-commit" state.

Ideally, the way it should work would be for the boss to say: "Okay, I think the right course of action is X, you think it's Y. We're in disagreement, but because I'm the boss, we'll do X. As you go about doing X, I won't intrude on your sphere of autonomy but will instead trust that you're a professional and will execute on X faithfully. If you frequently disagree with me and you're up for a promotion, I won't hold the disagreements against you. It might even work in your advantage, because we need to increase diversity of thought in management, rather than filling management roles with yes-men."

The way it usually works, in my experience, is: "I want you to do X, but you think you should be doing Y. That makes you a risk, because there's a danger you will sabotage X and execute on Y instead. I'll subject you to extra-close supervision to counteract that risk. When you're up for a promotion and you frequently disagree with me, I will fight your promotion, because if we increase your level of influence, it'll create more work for me, because I'll have to double-check your judgment and countermand your actions as a manager whereever I disagree. Having people in management who aren't yes-men just makes management more work, and we don't need that."

If your boss is of the latter kind and you disagree with them, then it's a mistake for you to ever "show your hand" to them by telling them about it. It's then better to just keep your mouth shut, and do as you're told. -- And this "shut your mouth and do as you're told" is my career advice for young people. This makes me look bad, and reflects poorly on the companies I've worked for. But that's the difference between career advice and hagiography.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#50

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it. My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal…

As far as opinions and feedback you are in a advisory role to your boss. Meaning you can disagree with him but ultimately the decision is his to make because he is responsible for the outcome. So you are free to disagree, but you are not free to insist and press the issue.

Now what happens when you disagree so hard on an issue that you simply can't accept your boss's position? First make sure it's really a make or break situation an not just a useless hill to die on. Then just state the fact as calmly as possible.

If telling your boss he's about to do something stupid means you will no longer be working working with him that's a good thing too. Not even close to a trap. If the stupid thing is not compatible with your principles (happened to me while working for a casino) then you should move on to something else. And if the boss is a proud idiot who can't take no criticism (I don't remember meeting one in 25 years) then you don't want to work with him either.

So no matter what, speak your mind. Even if you do it in a horrible way (I suspect this is the case with the parent poster), or you yourself are wrong, it is still better that you open your mouth and receive outside feedback than to develop an ugly hidden persona.

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