Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

theintercept.com

141–150 of 268 posts

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinions on abortion among many christian groups have been pretty fluid in the past century[1]. > The rhetoric about abortion being the catalyst for the rise of the Religious Right, however, collapses under scrutiny. Evangelicals considered abortion a “Catholic issue” until the late 1970s. In 1968, the flagship evangelical magazine Christianity Today convened a conference with another evangelical organization, Christ…

Why restrict your analysis to such a narrow scope? Abortion was illegal in every state in the US by 1910. It’s also still illegal in my home country, which is a Muslim country on the other side of the planet from the US. Opposition to abortion is longstanding across completely different cultures and religions. It’s not credible to say it’s something that arises from evangelical Christianity or a late 20th century pol…

> Abortion was illegal in every state in the US by 1910.

Let's be clear about what was illegal, because the radical definition, 'life begins at fertilization', is a recent innovation[1]:

> Abortion was not always a crime. During the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, abortion of early pregnancy was legal under common law.[22] Abortions were illegal only after "quickening," the point at which a pregnant woman could feel the movements of the fetus (approximately the fourth month of pregnancy). The common law's attitude toward pregnancy and abortion was based on an understanding of pregnancy and human development as a process rather than an absolute moment. Indeed, the term abortion referred only to the miscarriages of later pregnancies, after quickening.

[1] https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft967n...

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its always staggering to think people forget we only have a two party system. You'd think that would keep both parties in check from abusing their powers considering at some point the party you went after and did suspect things in order to win a few elections? Well, they're going to be back in power and what do you think they're going to do? The same thing you did. I feel like we're currently in this death spiral whe…

In my experience on social media, this sort of thinking is typically classified as "both sidesing" (or an assertion of "false equivalence", etc etc etc), and is considered to be highly inappropriate. And the people that say these things are often otherwise clearly intelligent, it is less common on HN perhaps, but certainly not uncommon.

Yeah, well, knee jerk both sides are the same which completely ignores major differences between those sides is really wrong.

It is mental shortcut that leafs to wrong conclusions and often ends up being a lie.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#143
post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

Its always staggering to think people forget we only have a two party system. You'd think that would keep both parties in check from abusing their powers considering at some point the party you went after and did suspect things in order to win a few elections? Well, they're going to be back in power and what do you think they're going to do? The same thing you did. I feel like we're currently in this death spiral whe…

Is the real split in this country between liberals and conservatives?

Or is about whether the political contest we observe is mostly genuine or mostly constructed?

Are we watching UFC or WWF?

UFC gives the impression of an authentic contest with real outcomes while WWF is generally understood and portrayed as a form of theater. People who identify in the liberal cluster tend to take the media narratives quite seriously, and despise people who show suspicion of popular media. They call them "conspiracy theorists" pejoratively.

The conservative cluster types are more widely ranging. Many have no objection to individual freedom and expression around things like abortion, drugs, or sexuality because they believe in individual freedom and responsibility: you can do what you like until it harms others AND it isn't my job to help you execute or recover from whatever silly thing you choose to undertake, I can do it if I choose.

This is likely the dominant conservative ideology, and yet it is virtually never portrayed in the media. What we see instead of a paternalistic Christianity presented as conservativism.

Perhaps that is why conservatives tend to distrust the media?

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#144
post #20
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) is made irrelevant in the most iron clad way by the First Amendment.

[flagged]

There are plenty of secular arguments against abortion. I'm not sure why both sides are acting like this is an obvious question with an obvious answer. Abortion balances the life, health, and happiness of the mother against the life of the unborn fetus. IMO this is one of the most ethically challenging questions that we're still arguing about as a society.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#145
post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

It seems to me that there may have been some sort of a strange, unrealized cultural change in Americans over the last few decades. I seem to recall that the abstract notion of freedom of speech/assembly/etc was considered a VERY big deal by all or at least most Americans. However, this seems to have morphed into people now holding most of their ideological beliefs at specific concrete, object level issue level. Assum…

IMO it's because everyone is in a panic about the other side. One side believes that the other side is "grooming and sterilizing children" while the other side believes that they are working to "replace democracy with fascism". In turn both sides get more extreme and work each other more into a frenzy as extremists on each side will in fact say outrageous shit. Abstract values like "free speech" get lost in the war.

Edit: even on here we have a comment openly calling for fascism (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35950813) and I'm sure others attacking the Christian roots of US society in comments here makes people on the other side who see that as the core of their value system feel equally threatened.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. When I was young, due to my family's business, I lived in multiple cultures outside of the US. I have personally experienced precisely the kind of political shift you mention in your post as a teenager, living in Argentina. I am referring to the military take-over. Imagine a world where the police or military thugs can kick down your front door i…

> I do realize that a good percentage of the HN college-educated audience is in the grips of ideology that was pounded into their heads. That stereotypes / strawpersons and dismisses everyone with a different perspective before they even speak (and yet complain about polarization). That's a good sign that you have no idea what they're talking about, not being exposed to other points of view. The oppression you discus…

>> I do realize that a good percentage of the HN college-educated audience is in the grips of ideology that was pounded into their heads.

> So you pidgeon-hole and dismiss everyone who might have a different perspective before they even speak

Oh, no, you are wrong. They speak plenty. Just try posting even moderate perspectives here on HN and see what reactions you get. Facts are, well, facts.

Try it. Go ahead. Create a throw-away account and comment on this thread with even a moderate view or maybe a slightly right-of-center view. No need to go to the extremes. Do that and then watch what happens. It will be educational.

> There are groups of people in the US that have long suffered the same treatment you did with police

Of course, and that's not even remotely acceptable. That does not mean that a moderate ideological perspective is wrong and one has to go full tilt militant in the other direction.

Do you even realize that probably somewhere around 90% of the people in the US (and likely almost any society), pretty much want the same things?

What are these things?

Without attempting to make an exhaustive list: Provide for their families, have a nice peaceful life, receive and offer tolerance, coexist with everyone else, live in a safe society rules by sensible laws, have a future, have opportunities, care for others in need, be socially tolerant and fiscally responsible, etc.

There's a very small minority (far less than 10%) of society who, well, fuck it up for everyone else by becoming militant at the extremes.

Take college professors.

In round numbers, there are about 300K in the US. That's 0.1% of the population. They have access to around twenty million students. That's about 7% of the US population. That is an incredible force multiplier. If that small group of people is ideologically militant --left, right, it does not matter-- you have the makings of a societal disaster. Just 0.1% of the population has --and tends to exercise-- incredible power with long-term consequences.

Most people are in some middle-of-the-road reasonable stance on most issues. That's the aspect of society that those intensely indoctrinated (on any side) cease to understand. Indoctrination makes people see the world only in extreme terms. Societies do not benefit from this at all.

In other words, your neighbor isn't a hateful, criminal, stupid, fire-breathing monster just because they voted Democrat or Republican. Thinking that way is tragically wrong and seriously misplaced.

> Dissenting and critical views are outlawed in many public arenas, such as schools, across large parts of the country.

Yes, exactly. And that is not acceptable, in any form, whether the ideology leans right or left.

The more you polarize societies the farther they are willing to go when they take power.

I sometimes see it in terms of Control System Theory.

https://roymech.org/Related/Control/Stability.html

This kind of polarization leads to unstable systems. Unstable systems produce violent oscillations, which typically result in failure.

While it is unlikely that society can approach something like a critically-damped system, that should be the (asymptotic) objective. This means balance, not radicalization. When over 90% of the people working at a social media platform (implementing the systems and rules) are ideologically uniform --faction does not matter-- the outcome will not be of benefit to society. That control system will peg to one limit and result in violent ever-increasing oscillations.

The solution to this problem starts with education. That 0.1% of society should not have the power to indoctrinate tens of millions of people over decades.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While the US is busy polarizing its own population --alarmingly, through education-- actors around the world spend ever day placing one foot in front of the other. The result of this massive lack of foresight will not be pretty. This is how it's always been, it's not new. Just look at the 1960's in America. I'm also not even sure how much of it's the systems in question and how much is the people in question using…

[flagged]

> What the fuck does that shit have to do with Computer Science in the first place?

Universities are not trade schools. If you expect a trade school, go to a trade school. If you expect education long many topics, with a focus on one, then go to a university. Worried that many places of business prefer university graduates to trade school graduates? Maybe there's a reason they prefer to hire from those pools. Maybe there's a bunch of small reasons that combine in the the status quo.

> The idea that you have to take courses such as "Young Karl Marx" at a university in the US in order to graduate should be alarming to anyone who understands world history.

To me, that's no more alarming than history courses in high school going into the motivations, both economical and and otherwise, which caused the U.S. civil war. There is a benefit to understanding alternative points of view, even if you don't share them. Some people, of course, will share them. I don't think that's a valid reason not to discuss those topics critically, it might make it an even better reason to discuss them, and where they worked and where they didn't.

> where you can spend a year becoming an expert in the Communist Manifesto and other related topics. Which society do you think will generate better outcomes?

Hopefully anyone that spent a year becoming an expert in communism would at least have learned that it's mostly failed, multiple times and in multiple places, and that pure communism is not something we can realistically assume would work?

Similarly to anyone in college that looks at capitalism closely will see that we don't have a system of pure capitalism, and that what makes our system work is less ideological view and more nuanced approach that uses capitalism and free markets where they work, buttresses that with regulation where there's incentives that are against the public interest, and sprinkles in socialism where it is the better fit.

Not letting people discuss this and instead insisting that that no, communism can't be given any mental space when to accurately describe the reality of the system we currently have requires knowing how it affected us throughout history strikes me as somewhat shortsighted.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#149
post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

> Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. Words won't protect you. Precedent won't protect you. Guns won't protect you. If you are in a society where others want you surveiled or dead or removed or heavily restricted, and you're outnumbered, it's already t…

just scare people enough and they will turn in their family members. Especially if you dress it up in being the right moral thing to do. we were so close during the lockdowns, one step away

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The idea that you have to take courses such as "Young Karl Marx" at a university in the US in order to graduate should be alarming to anyone who understands world history. I am not making this up. It happened to my son at a major US university With a decade on this site, you have to know this kind of inflammatory and difficult-to-believe statement needs a citation. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm pretty cl…

[flagged]
Post reply on HN