U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#121

Post by mistermann » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:42 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #115

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

Its always staggering to think people forget we only have a two party system. You'd think that would keep both parties in check from abusing their powers considering at some point the party you went after and did suspect things in order to win a few elections? Well, they're going to be back in power and what do you think they're going to do? The same thing you did. I feel like we're currently in this death spiral whe…

In my experience on social media, this sort of thinking is typically classified as "both sidesing" (or an assertion of "false equivalence", etc etc etc), and is considered to be highly inappropriate.

And the people that say these things are often otherwise clearly intelligent, it is less common on HN perhaps, but certainly not uncommon.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#122

Post by robomartin » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #118

robomartin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. When I was young, due to my family's business, I lived in multiple cultures outside of the US. I have personally experienced precisely the kind of political shift you mention in your post as a teenager, living in Argentina. I am referring to the military take-over. Imagine a world where the police or military thugs can kick down your front door i…

> While the US is busy polarizing its own population --alarmingly, through education-- actors around the world spend ever day placing one foot in front of the other. The result of this massive lack of foresight will not be pretty. This is how it's always been, it's not new. Just look at the 1960's in America. I'm also not even sure how much of it's the systems in question and how much is the people in question using…

[flagged]

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#123

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #108

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

> A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. When I was young, due to my family's business, I lived in multiple cultures outside of the US. I have personally experienced precisely the kind of political shift you mention in your post as a teenager, living in Argentina. I am referring to the military take-over. Imagine a world where the police or military thugs can kick down your front door i…

> I do realize that a good percentage of the HN college-educated audience is in the grips of ideology that was pounded into their heads.

That stereotypes / strawpersons and dismisses everyone with a different perspective before they even speak (and yet complain about polarization). That's a good sign that you have no idea what they're talking about, not being exposed to other points of view.

The oppression you discuss has long existed in the US: There are groups of people in the US that have long suffered the same treatment you did with police, such as Black people; that's the source of the term 'black lives matter' - it's saying 'our lives actually matter like everyone else's; you can't just take them with impunity'. Now New York officials can summarily declare someone to have mental illness and involuntarily detain them - one person was murdered and much of the country praises the murderer. LGBTQ people are widely denied rights and are subject to lawless attacks and abuse, including by government. Dissenting and critical views are outlawed in many public arenas, such as schools, across large parts of the country.

It's that oppression that many people in colleges and elsewhere are working hard to change. You are actually on the same side, if you wouldn't let the reactionaries (who are simply anti-liberal) divide you - that's how they hold on to their oppressive power.

Edit: Some revision

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#124

Post by drewcoo » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

kiawe_fire wrote: post #71

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

Additionally, I find it a bit concerning that people are ok with violating one principle or right on the basis that it’s fighting against another violation. If we identify A, B, C, and D as potential rights, and you and I agree on rights A and B, but we disagree on the principles of C and D, then it’s ok that my side violates your rights A and B because if we can’t agree on all of them, then you deserve none. It’s th…

> people are ok with violating one principle or right on the basis that it’s fighting against another violation

It's as if they never heard of or disagree with the sentiment of the ninth amendment . . .

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-9/

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#125

Post by josephcsible » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

sbuk wrote: post #119

zmgsabst wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism...

Can we have another, unbiased source please. That one is state-sponsored and doesn't provide a credible source.

[flagged]

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#126

Post by rayiner » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:53 PM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #88

rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Opinions on abortion among many christian groups have been pretty fluid in the past century[1]. > The rhetoric about abortion being the catalyst for the rise of the Religious Right, however, collapses under scrutiny. Evangelicals considered abortion a “Catholic issue” until the late 1970s. In 1968, the flagship evangelical magazine Christianity Today convened a conference with another evangelical organization, Christ…

Why restrict your analysis to such a narrow scope? Abortion was illegal in every state in the US by 1910. It’s also still illegal in my home country, which is a Muslim country on the other side of the planet from the US. Opposition to abortion is longstanding across completely different cultures and religions. It’s not credible to say it’s something that arises from evangelical Christianity or a late 20th century political movement.

What you’re describing is instead an ideological schism within Protestant Christianity. Since Luther, Protestant Christianity had a strong natalist orientation. That’s why abortion was illegal in every US state by 1910. But during the 20th century, mainline protestantism adopted an anti-natalist view out of concerns about overpopulation and the welfare of the poor. That’s the genesis of the modern US abortion debate.

It’s not accurate to say that these patterns reflect views on abortion being “fluid.” Protestantism isn’t centralized—especially denominations like Baptists. Until the mid-20th century, pretty much all the denominations agreed abortion was wrong. Once the anti-natal movement got going, those denominations fractured and people sorted into different ones. For example, the Evangelical Presbyterian church split from what’s now the PCUSA in 1981. Both are “evangelical.” But we apply the “evangelical” label to one and not the other, based on their views on abortion and other issues.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#127

Post by prepend » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #97

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand abortion protesters have a habit of assassinating doctors that perform abortions.

> abortion protesters have a habit of assassinating doctors that perform abortions

What’s the prevalence of this occurring? Wikipedia calls out 7 in the US [0] with the most recent in 2015. This this seems like profiling protesters as assassins is about as rational as profiling members of a certain religion as terrorists.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#128

Post by fn-mote » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #122

kbenson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While the US is busy polarizing its own population --alarmingly, through education-- actors around the world spend ever day placing one foot in front of the other. The result of this massive lack of foresight will not be pretty. This is how it's always been, it's not new. Just look at the 1960's in America. I'm also not even sure how much of it's the systems in question and how much is the people in question using…

[flagged]

> The idea that you have to take courses such as "Young Karl Marx" at a university in the US in order to graduate should be alarming to anyone who understands world history. I am not making this up. It happened to my son at a major US university

With a decade on this site, you have to know this kind of inflammatory and difficult-to-believe statement needs a citation.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm pretty close to university policies and "major" US universities in general have broad requirements that can generally be satisfied by a wide(-ish) selection of courses. I have to assume there were some specific constraints in your particular case that were omitted to make this argument seem stronger.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#129

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #100

jandrese wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand abortion protesters have a habit of assassinating doctors that perform abortions.

In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. > Twitter, alerted a federal law enforcement agency to pro-abortion protests and rallies in the wake of the reversal of Roe v. Wade, according to documents obtained by The Intercept through a Freedom of Information Act request.

Do you have evidence of that?

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#130

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

sbuk wrote: post #119

zmgsabst wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism...

Can we have another, unbiased source please. That one is state-sponsored and doesn't provide a credible source.

That's not what "state sponsored" means. (I mean, yes, technically the Vatican is a state. It's still ridiculous to label everything Catholic as "state sponsored".)