Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs • Hacker News Board

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#21

Post by ledauphin » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:33 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #18

ledauphin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose if: 1. your sincere religious beliefs impelled you to deny all medical care to people based on their beliefs - in other words your religion establishes that certain beliefs make you an unperson. AND 2. This bill were written saying anything at all about denying all medical care, which it is not, since the provider would be forced to identify specific forms of care that they were unwilling to provide to _all…

> in other words your religion establishes that certain beliefs make you an unperson. Not an unperson, but equivalent to supporting the enemy. Would you be comfortable saving the life of a person you know is a mass murderer, who hasn't yet been arrested of charged, and thus would be free to murder again after you save their life, for instance?

Doctors literally do this all the time. This is part of what it means to be a doctor. ER surgeons don't get to know whether the patient is a "good guy or a bad guy" before they save the patient's life.

And this bill doesn't change that long-established approach to medicine.

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#22

Post by egypturnash » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:33 PM UTC

I am looking forwards to seeing what happens when every insurance company operating in Florida suddenly gets a new religion that just so happens to conflict with paying out any money. I think there's ample precedent in most insurance company's actions to "determine such beliefs by reference to the entities’ governing documents; any published ethical, moral, or religious guidelines or directives; mission statements; constitutions; articles ofincorporation; bylaws; policies; or regulations".

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#23

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:34 PM UTC

ledauphin wrote: post #15

jmclnx wrote: post #6

So, if I was a Dr., and a supporter of this law came under my care for a serious condition, could I throw him out of my office because of my religious beliefs

This bill allows providers to exclude forms of medical care across all patients, not persons of specific types.

Frankly I’m very skeptical of the language of the bill. I can’t really think of a specific medical procedure that can be broadly blanket banned on religious grounds that doesn’t come off as extreme or discriminatory: even if one is against abortion, helping to expel a dead fetus is the exact same medical procedure. Even if one is against hormone replacement therapy for trans people, the process of assisting low-testosterone men or menopausal women is the same prescriptions.

I could imagine a doctor who would find circumcision ok but is against gender affirming surgery for minors. But like, idk, what’s the legal difference here that isnt discriminatory?

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#24

Post by sirsinsalot » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:37 PM UTC

I'm sorry, we don't insure anyone who isn't straight, Christian, has a criminal record or who are in a mixed race marriage.

Policy invalid. Request denied. Good luck.

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#25

Post by ledauphin » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

sirsinsalot wrote: post #19

Kosecant wrote: post #5

[flagged]

I think that medical professionals should be paid to administer treatment to human beings, regardless of the situation. It is a human. They should be all treated the same unless the patient requests. To do anything else is immoral rot. What next, denial of treatment to someone you don't like? Or someone who committed a crime? Sorry, I don't treat shoplifters, your cancer is God telling you that you did wrong America…

I have to imagine you're more capable of having a serious philosophical discussion than this sounds.

There is a huge difference between offering to treat only those whom you like, and offering to do only the types of procedures you believe are "good".

We have rightly outlawed the former for many categories of supposed goodness/badness. But forcing people to start performing new treatments that are the societal cause du jour that would not previously have been part of their job description is quite arguably federalized slavery. The goalposts will never stop shifting, so either swear eternal and unwavering fealty to the state or go find a different job?

It's quite rich when a forum of techies who mostly can find a well-paying job doing almost nothing of lasting value for anyone can find time to judge medical professionals who improve people's health on a daily basis because of a difference of opinion about the job description of those healthcare professionals.

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#26

Post by throw101010 » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

George83728 wrote: post #9

slater wrote: post #3

The hippocratic oath, well-known to have always come with an asterisk pointing to a 20-page EULA

Are you sure you're talking about the right oath? > [...] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. [...] Doctors aren't even made to swear to this oath. They can if they want to, or another oath if they please, or no oath at all as far as…

Most medical schools apply modern versions, most of which do not forbid abortion and are more secular than the original Greek oath.

> As of 1993, only 14% of medical oaths prohibited euthanasia, and only 8% prohibited abortion Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#Modern_vers...

It is not rare to have people colloquially call these other forms of "the" oath many M.D. swear to the hippocratic oaths in my experience.

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#27

Post by ledauphin » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #14

Kosecant wrote: post #5

[flagged]

Compelled service with compensation still exists: Jury duty, contractual relationships (e.g. military stop-loss policies). What this does is eliminate a particular contractual compulsion.

interesting you bring up jury duty and military service, both of which have longstanding religious conscience exemptions.

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#28

Post by ledauphin » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:46 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #23

ledauphin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bill allows providers to exclude forms of medical care across all patients, not persons of specific types.

Frankly I’m very skeptical of the language of the bill. I can’t really think of a specific medical procedure that can be broadly blanket banned on religious grounds that doesn’t come off as extreme or discriminatory: even if one is against abortion, helping to expel a dead fetus is the exact same medical procedure. Even if one is against hormone replacement therapy for trans people, the process of assisting low-testo…

I'm very confused by your comment - where does the language of the bill say anything about _banning_ medical procedures? And do you get the impression that there are a lot of (or any) doctors in Florida qualified to expel dead fetuses who would prefer to refuse that medical procedure? Or is this just a very detailed straw man?

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#29

Post by calgarymicro » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:51 PM UTC

ledauphin wrote: post #15

jmclnx wrote: post #6

So, if I was a Dr., and a supporter of this law came under my care for a serious condition, could I throw him out of my office because of my religious beliefs

This bill allows providers to exclude forms of medical care across all patients, not persons of specific types.

If the article is right then there are certain classes of people that can be denied service.

> While the legislation says that health care providers can't use it to deny care based on a patient's race, color, religion, sex or national origin, attempts by Democratic lawmakers to extend those protections to gender identity and sexuality failed.

Re: Florida health care can now be denied based on moral, ethical, religious beliefs

#30

Post by ledauphin » Sun, May 14, 2023, 10:53 PM UTC

hgsgm wrote: post #11

ars wrote: post #4

The title and article aren't quite telling you the truth. The bill allows providers to decline to provide specific services where those services are in opposition to their beliefs. It does not allow them to deny all health care, just those specific services they are opposed to. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

So like, if I believe that it's immoral to touch a gay person, and I am an EMT who encounters a bleeding gay person?

Courts are pretty good at awarding large dollar amounts and/or throwing people in jail when they lie to the court. Which is what would be required if someone attempted this, since (as far as I'm aware) there's no religion or cult in history that believes anything remotely approaching this very strange straw man.