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Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

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Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#151

Post by moffkalast »

Fatnino wrote: post #131
harimau777 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it, this sort of thing is generally based on a reasonable person standard. I.e. would a reasonable person assume that if their car requires a key to start, then it cannot be started with something as trivial as a USB key?

I keep hearing this vague claim that the cars can be started with a usb key. How does this work? Is there a usb port that reads some secret file off the USB key? Is it just the USB plug shape that fits somewhere in the car that forces it to turn on?

Here's a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTeVgfPM0Xw

Apparently it's more of a joke, you can do it completely bare handed if you don't mind tearing some plastic and manage to grab a finicky bit. The cars have no immobilizers at all apparently.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#152

Post by rootusrootus »

digdugdirk wrote: post #57

People are commenting on this with a fundamental lack of understanding of a car's ignition system. This design truly is flawed. Traditionally, the immobilizer in an ignition system is physically tied to the steering column. Basically, you'd need to remove the steering column (the physical pipe that goes between your steering wheel and the front steering rack) in order to remove the part. If you want to defeat that im…

A typical modern (say, mid 90s or later) car immobilizer is not mechanical, it is electronic. If you don't have a properly programmed key (or fob) in close proximity to the sensor, the ECU won't let the engine start. No amount of physical force or access to the steering column will defeat it. You may get far enough to make the starter turn the engine, but the ECU won't fire the injectors.

The problem with Hyundai & Kia is that they elected not to include this 25 year old technology at all.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#153

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

thejarren wrote: post #145
ravensfan69 wrote: post #139

I live in Baltimore, in a pretty "good" part of town where most of the young professionals and Hopkins hospital staff live. I know 4 different people who've had cars stolen in the past 24 months. In 3 of these cases the perpetrators were teenagers, and in 2 of these cases they brandished guns. Only one of these thefts were Hyundai/Kia-related, and the thief punched my buddy in the face during the theft. Many others I…

As someone who owns a Hyundai and a Kia, this is an interesting thread to read. Going to look into some safety steps moving forward.

They'll smash your windows anyway. Only safe option is to switch brands.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#154

Post by prottog »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #121
alexb_ wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they still wouldn't be at fault. It's not their fault that the society Baltimore has crafted is so low trust that you can't leave your car outside for a second without it getting stolen.

It's their fault they made a defective product though. When people buy a car the expectation is that you can't steal it in under 10 seconds with no tools.

Like others said, in that case the customer who bought the product has standing to sue, not the city of Baltimore.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#155

Post by nicenewtemp84 »

This isn't as simple as "no immobilizer". My 2004 Ford F250 doesn't have one either.

Thieves got into it and tried extremely hard to force the ignition and steal it. They tried hammering a flat head into it and rotating. Didn't work. They tried grabbing the outside of the mechanism with some kind of pliers and rotate, and that didn't work. I can see they easily spent several minutes on the whole ordeal, and didn't get anywhere. The entire lock mechanism was destroyed, almost shaved smaller from how many times they tried and their pliers slipped.

When I got to it a few days later, I had to get home using that truck. I put the key in the ignition and turned it, and drove off.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#156

Post by alistairSH »

sithadmin wrote: post #103
harimau777 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far does that line of reasoning go? Suppose that every car they sold used the same key. "We just said that the car has locks. We didn't say that those locks have unique keys." Clearly there has to be some degree to which a customer can assume that a product they buy meets the standard functionality associated with that product.

While that would definitely be a problem, that's the end-user's/customer's problem. It would be appropriate for a Hyundai/Kia buyer to sue Hyundai/Kia for damages experienced because of such a thing. It doesn't make sense for a municipality to sue here - they're not a party with a stake in the ostensibly defective product.

But the city is expending resources (police, mostly) so there is damage.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#157

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

ravensfan69 wrote: post #139

I live in Baltimore, in a pretty "good" part of town where most of the young professionals and Hopkins hospital staff live. I know 4 different people who've had cars stolen in the past 24 months. In 3 of these cases the perpetrators were teenagers, and in 2 of these cases they brandished guns. Only one of these thefts were Hyundai/Kia-related, and the thief punched my buddy in the face during the theft. Many others I…

>It would take Ra's al Ghul to resolve the problems of this city

I heard OCP has some ideas and products they'd like to pitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMtqRir7dco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYsulVXpgYg

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#158

Post by theGnuMe »

HillRat wrote: post #46
aardvarkr wrote: post #8

Lots of comments that didn’t read the article so here’s a good excerpt on why there’s a lawsuit. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and boost profits “notwithstanding decades of academic literature and research supporting the deterrent effects” of anti-theft technology. “The dramatically increased rat…

These lawsuits are part of a longstanding effort by cities and states to try and develop a theory of manufacturer legal accountability through public nuisance law, an effort that is perhaps morally laudable but legally fraught; to date, other than a few outlier environmental cases from the '70s, courts have almost uniformly declined to create a kind of parallel product-liability law through nuisance. While individual…

The auto manufacturers absolutely have liability.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#159

Post by jjk166 »

klodolph wrote: post #75
wslh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article sounds like if you leave the door open you should assume anybody will enter and steal you. This is reversing the victim to the victimary. In a sexist way would be similar that you are being raped because you wear some specific clothes. Or you are hacked because you don't apply a patch.

Are you reading the same article? The city is going after Kia, not the car owners. Kia is making defective cars; people are buying them; the city is going after Kia.

Yeah, suing clothing manufacturers because people wearing them were raped is not any better. The city has an obligation to prevent crime, car manufacturers do not.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#160

Post by hoofhearted »

local_crmdgeon wrote: post #140

The City of Baltimore has repeatedly demonstrated that they will do anything besides try to change the behavior of the population. It's a failed city, and luckily the model is being exported to places like SF, LA, and DC. Why should we punish people who repeatedly commit crime anyway? Fuck it, why do anything? Let's sue Kia instead, maybe we can get a payday

It’s a little early to be drinking isn’t it?

The city is suing to recover the money they spent on all the police efforts expended because Kia cut corners to reduce costs.

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