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Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

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Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#61
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article sounds like if you leave the door open you should assume anybody will enter and steal you. This is reversing the victim to the victimary. In a sexist way would be similar that you are being raped because you wear some specific clothes. Or you are hacked because you don't apply a patch.

If a woman doesn't wear a titanium chastity belt, she can be deemed negligent.

And if LPL can pick up the belt lock then it's fair game.

Sounds stupid, like the way to blame hyundai or kia for existence of scum people like thieves.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#62

People are commenting on this with a fundamental lack of understanding of a car's ignition system. This design truly is flawed. Traditionally, the immobilizer in an ignition system is physically tied to the steering column. Basically, you'd need to remove the steering column (the physical pipe that goes between your steering wheel and the front steering rack) in order to remove the part. If you want to defeat that im…

> Its a fundamentally flawed design, and it never should have made it past review.

It is a flawed design, but there’s just one problem for a lawsuit: Immobilizers are not legally required in the US. A flawed immobilizer is fine, considering there doesn’t even need to be an immobilizer.

Baltimore is suing because, yes, they are easy to steal and that makes things inconvenient for Baltimore. But no law was broken - there is no law requiring cars to be hard to steal. Thus they are trying to claim “public nuisance” instead of “negligence.”

This, in my mind, is a super slippery slope. You know parts pairing on iPhones, where you can’t swap the camera without Apple’s approval? One day there could be a carmaker or two that pairs everything from mirrors to catalytic converter to “prevent theft and fraud.” If Baltimore wins, anyone who doesn’t do that could be found liable. Just an extreme example of how this could go sideways fast.

Or let’s say two or three bike manufacturers start putting GPS systems into their bikes, to prevent theft. Can any bike manufacturer that doesn’t do that be sued in the future? I would argue, they should absolutely not be in absence of a law.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#63
post #7

Is there a list published somewhere documenting which Hyundai and Kia car models are affected?

Found a list of models that are blacklisted from being added to insurance policies [1]:

    2015-2021 Hyundai Accent (all body styles)
    2015-2021 Hyundai Elantra (two-door and four-door)
    2015-2021 Hyundai Kona
    2015-2021 Hyundai Santa Fe
    2015-2021 Hyundai Tucson
    2015-2018 Hyundai Veloster
    2015-2021 Kia Forte
    2015-2021 Kia Optima
    2015-2016 Kia Optima Hybrid
    2015-2021 Kia Rio (all body styles)
    2015-2021 Kia Sedona
    2015-2016 Kia Sorento
    2015-2021 Kia Soul
    2015-2021 Kia Sportage
edit: forbes [2] offers a slightly different list of models:

> Hyundai is offering a free software update to prevent thefts on certain targeted vehicles, starting Tuesday on nearly 4 million Hyundais on the road. The first million eligible cars are 2017 to 2020 Elantra, 2015 to 2019 Sonata and 2020 to 2021 Venue vehicles. Affected owners can bring in the car to Hyundai dealerships for the free anti-theft upgrade. It takes about an hour to install. Once updated a window decal will (hopefully) alert and deter thieves from targeting the vehicle.

> The next batch of eligible vehicles will go in for the software update in June and includes a long list of Kia models, including:

    2018-2022 Accent
    2011-2016 Elantra
    2021-2022 Elantra
    2018-2020 Elantra GT
    2011-2014 Genesis Coupe
    2018-2022 Kona
    2020-2021 Palisade
    2013-2018 Santa Fe Sport
    2013-2022 Santa Fe
    2019 Santa Fe XL
    2011-2014 Sonata
    2011-2022 Tucson
    2012-2017, 2019-2021 Veloster
[1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/these-hyundai-and-kia-models-a...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/kia-hyundai-car-thefts-se...

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying Hyundai and Kia did this so the car is more easily modifiable? Are they known for making more repairable cars? Are they framework laptop of the car world? Or merely cheap carmakers who found the wrong corner to cut and save costs?

what I'm saying is that if you imagine the most reparable car in the world, it would inherently be easy to steal and thus subject to the same lawsuit being presented to Kia and Hyundai.

There is no relationship. I can take apart my front door including the lock without a problem, and it is still secure. Security is a property of the locked state, repairability a property of the unlocked state.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider reading the article The concerns are valid >Certain Kia or Hyundai models can be stolen using a screwdriver and a USB charging cord. >Cleveland, St. Louis and Seattle are among the other cities that started suing the the car companies earlier this year. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and…

Nothing in the article nor the parts that you extracted establishes exactly why a municipality would have standing to sue a product manufacturer for damages, or why a manufacturer is somehow obligated to include features that a municipality deems to be 'standard'. The fact that there are consumer products whose absence of features creates a negative externality for local law enforcement doesn't seem like sufficient g…

The city should run a public campaign to publicly advertise the consequences of stealing a vehicle (e.g./ jail, heavy fines, reduced job prospects, etc.). Make it clear criminals will be punished hard for stealing cars. Maybe they can ask the manufacturers and dealers to sponsor or donate to it.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This situation is more like a deadbolt with a cover that could be pried off with your fingers, and then could be opened by any key shaped object once the cover is off. Maybe to put in software terms - a login page that allowed anyone to sign in to any account by viewing source and finding an admin login button sitting there for anyone to see. It truly is a flawed design. Yes, a design that might not be flawed for man…

Of those two the second struck me as an example of someone who should expect to be victimized. It is funny how conditioned we are to assume people online will be as malicious as we allow them to be.

Mechanical engineers operate under the same assumption, though it's generally a stupidity standard vs a maliciousness standard. In this case, they absolutely should have recognized there was no backup to their (much more affordable) immobilizer design, and caught it in the early design review phases.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#67
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Hyundai and Kia’s decision to put cost savings and profits over public safety has had significant consequences for Baltimore and its residents..." Hyundai has some of the safest , most efficient small cars on the road, for great prices. I'd say these things are a net positive to "public safety" over all.

Do those great prices include the cost of recovering a stolen car?

Feel free to demand an additional discount when buying a Kia/Hyundai in Baltimore.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#68
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what I'm saying is that if you imagine the most reparable car in the world, it would inherently be easy to steal and thus subject to the same lawsuit being presented to Kia and Hyundai.

There is no relationship. I can take apart my front door including the lock without a problem, and it is still secure. Security is a property of the locked state, repairability a property of the unlocked state.

no it is not. the fact that you can take apart your front door makes it inherently easier to get into your house vs. a door that could not be disassembled.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#69
post #11

[flagged]

When it doesn't happen with any other makes, yes! Cost cutting out industry standard anti-theft tech should be the car companies responsibility. Also....17 other local prosecutors, not just Baltimore.

Industry standard means used widely across the industry, I would like to note that Hyundai and Kia are the largest Korean automotive makers. In the NA market, Hyundai is positioned #5 with 10% market share. In Korea, Kia and Hyundai combined have ~79% of the market. So to frame it as "they are not using industry standard" is wrong as at least 10% of the NA market and ~80% of the Korean market does not use this technology.

So in the past, the most stolen make of car was the Honda Accord.

Apparently Honda should have taken note and aggressively pushed new anti-theft technology.

You are looking for a technological solution to a societal problem.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#70
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Hyundai and Kia’s decision to put cost savings and profits over public safety has had significant consequences for Baltimore and its residents..." Hyundai has some of the safest , most efficient small cars on the road, for great prices. I'd say these things are a net positive to "public safety" over all.

Do those great prices include the cost of recovering a stolen car?

How is hyundai responsible for that? South corea is full of hyundais and there's no such problem there. Maybe the root cause of stealing is different?
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