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Kiss your free returns goodbye

thehustle.co

41–50 of 61 posts

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#41

I’m ok with this since it means people who rarely/never return something won’t have to subsidize those who do. How in the world are return rates 15-30%! The only way those kinds of rates make sense to me is if a product is just highly unreliable (as in, does not work at all). Yes, sizing varies for clothing, but this says to me people are being perfectionists when it comes to fit.

> this says to me people are being perfectionists when it comes to fit

I guess this is one of those times when we have to recognize that humans are not a totally homogenous species with identical habits and desires. Believe it or not, there are many people in the world who couldn't care less which OS or text editor they use nor even how the configuration should be adjusted to suit their tastes and workflow. They would be absolutely mystified by all the discussion that goes on in these parts about different Linux flavours, tabs v spaces, vim v emacs etc etc.

Now imagine that kind of complexity and nuance applied to products that you are relatively indifferent towards. There are thousands of people out there who care about every single detail about a piece of clothing, not just being the perfect fit (yes, that does matter to a lot of people, rather than "it'll do"), but also the exact colour, texture, fabric, stitching patterns, quality of manufacture, the style of the cut which may look good on a model on the website but just doesn't suit the person's own body at all. Have you ever wondered why so many people (often, but not exclusively women) can spend an entire day shopping for a single garment, visiting so many different stores, trying on so many apparently similar items before being satisfied with just one (and even then, sometimes still regretting the purchase afterwards). Buying clothes, for many people, requires trying on so many different alternatives and making a considered decision. And in all the details above, there is often a big difference between what is perceived from the website images vs the reality of the garment when it is held in the hands, examined in detail, tried on the individual person.

"Free returns" has enabled a behaviour I have often seen in friends and family: order lots of different items with the clear intention of sending at least half of them back, perhaps more, knowing in advance due to the nature of online retail that at least some of those clothes will simply be disappointing when seen up close, others will be a terrible fit, and yet others will sort-of fit in a way that pleases many people but somehow doesn't yet feel right. They are using their homes as the changing room at the store. The paradigm is not "decide what to buy before ordering, choose only one item and only send it back if it is egregiously disappointing", rather "order a whole range of items to try on and assess, then keep only the ones that really please me."

I'm not saying this is good or bad, simply trying to provide some explanation to address your "how in the world" question. Free returns has, until now, enabled this behaviour in consumers which probably drove a lot of growth among skeptical buyers by allowing them to mimic the live shopping experience (try on lots of stuff, keep only a few) at home. If this isn't economically viable, then I guess consumers who are now a lot more acclimatised to online clothes shopping will have to adjust having some of the risk and inconvenience pushed back in their direction. Or, they will choose stores that offer them the service they have become used to while other consumers like you will probably choose a different retailer with lower prices overall but a stricter return policy. Or someone will invent some new kind of financial model, like an opt-in "returns insurance" or Prime-style subscription fee that allows unlimited "free" returns only for those customers who value that experience. Who knows? It's a shift in the market which as ever will be fun to watch.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#42

Most discussions about this topic somehow seem to assume that people enjoy returning stuff. They don’t. It’s effort One of the key unresolved problems in fashion retail remains the crazy, unreliable sizing systems. Just because you are size $X at one brand, doesn’t mean you’re size $X at another. Also, the majority of brands only cater to average body proportions. Slim feet? Tall? Good luck!

> Just because you are size $X at one brand, doesn’t mean you’re size $X at another In my experience it’s worse than that. Buying from the same brand, sometimes even the same item (or its successor), results in wildy different fitment. I’ve strictly returned to brick and mortar. It’s so much more convenient buying something that fits.

I just had to return a couple of shoes: I thought I was being smart by ordering the exact same brand, model, and size again, but when they showed up they fit my feet like vises. In the end I also went to a brick and mortar store.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#43

I’m ok with this since it means people who rarely/never return something won’t have to subsidize those who do. How in the world are return rates 15-30%! The only way those kinds of rates make sense to me is if a product is just highly unreliable (as in, does not work at all). Yes, sizing varies for clothing, but this says to me people are being perfectionists when it comes to fit.

Yes, sizing varies for clothing, but this says to me people are being perfectionists when it comes to fit.

I can buy two pairs of pants. Same color (black), same style, same size, and bought at the same time. I can buy them at the store and try on one pair. And the second pair commonly fits differently. One a bit loose and the other having a waistband that digs in a little bit.

Shirts are similar. One will have room for breasts, the other gaps at the buttons or stretches more. One long sleeve shirt will touch the back of my hands, the other will show my wrist bones.

Ordering isn't much better: You have to trust that their garments actually match their sizing chart. My summer jacket was one my spouse ordered, and it definitely ran smaller than advertised.

This isn't being a perfectionist, but expecting honesty with fit and for the same garment to fit basically the same.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#44
post #11

Is the average online return rate really 15%-30%? What are people returning? My personal return rate is closer to 0.15%.

Not at all in my case, even something around 20-30%. Why all trousers nowadays are so tight? Why every upper garment is so baggy? You know that sunglasses come in sizes? This smartphone absolutely does not look as in the marketing photos, it's all cheap plastic. American M, Italian M, and European M are completely different sizes.

American M, Italian M, and European M are completely different sizes.

I wish it were that simple.

A European M is a different size between stores. Sometimes you get slightly different sizes between the same style garment, in the same color manufactured by the same company.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#45

Most discussions about this topic somehow seem to assume that people enjoy returning stuff. They don’t. It’s effort One of the key unresolved problems in fashion retail remains the crazy, unreliable sizing systems. Just because you are size $X at one brand, doesn’t mean you’re size $X at another. Also, the majority of brands only cater to average body proportions. Slim feet? Tall? Good luck!

It’s not that I enjoy returning clothes. It’s that it’s more enjoyable than doing the brick and mortar retail fitting room thing. At multiple stores the logistical burden is too heavy.

Retail: I like this shirt on rack, try on two sizes, wait one size I need is sold out. End up settling for another item that I like and has my size in store. Might be third or forth option. I might just say forget it and leave empty handed.

Online: I kind of like this shirt, I buy 2 sizes I think might work, try them on when they arrive in my house on my time, if I actually like the fabric/look in person and I’ve identified the size works, I keep one of them and return the other. If I ended up disliking the fabric or something entirely that I couldn’t tell from product pictures I return both.

That said, the logistical issues of browsing/shopping online are significant too. I tend to be somewhat brand/store loyal so that’s how I deal with it.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#46
post #35

Most discussions about this topic somehow seem to assume that people enjoy returning stuff. They don’t. It’s effort One of the key unresolved problems in fashion retail remains the crazy, unreliable sizing systems. Just because you are size $X at one brand, doesn’t mean you’re size $X at another. Also, the majority of brands only cater to average body proportions. Slim feet? Tall? Good luck!

Actually this is resolved entirely, just outside North America. It's incredibly frustrating when North American companies decide thingsike a 34" waist is 36" in one brand and 34" in another - don't get me started about inconsistencies within the brand itself - which is how I used to solve this. Just buy European sized things. Sizes are sizes They're clear. They're clear to the point of your having a ability to measur…

> Actually this is resolved entirely, just outside North America.

I'm European and I have no idea what you're talking about. This simply isn't true, and cannot be true even in theory because our bodies are three-dimensional and clothing sizes are usually single numbers/letters.

A single size number will always be insufficient - 95% of jeans that fit my waist are too short and there's no way to know other than trying them. Same with shirts. I can try two shoes in the same size from the same brand and only one fits because the other one was designed for stick figure feet. One of my shoes is size 43, another is size 45 and they're literally the same size.

People like making fun of imperial units but what actually deserves all this ridicule and more is the nonsensical chaos that is clothing sizes, numbers that the manufacturers seem to get via dice rolls.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all in my case, even something around 20-30%. Why all trousers nowadays are so tight? Why every upper garment is so baggy? You know that sunglasses come in sizes? This smartphone absolutely does not look as in the marketing photos, it's all cheap plastic. American M, Italian M, and European M are completely different sizes.

American M, Italian M, and European M are completely different sizes. I wish it were that simple. A European M is a different size between stores. Sometimes you get slightly different sizes between the same style garment, in the same color manufactured by the same company.

There is cultural difference in sizing, then differences in sizing resulting from poor quality control.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#48

I’m ok with this since it means people who rarely/never return something won’t have to subsidize those who do. How in the world are return rates 15-30%! The only way those kinds of rates make sense to me is if a product is just highly unreliable (as in, does not work at all). Yes, sizing varies for clothing, but this says to me people are being perfectionists when it comes to fit.

> Yes, sizing varies for clothing, but this says to me people are being perfectionists when it comes to fit.

A lot of people simply order a bunch of shoes or whatever, try them on like in a retail shop and return everything they don't like. It's often not even about sizing, or at least not exclusively. And this worked for a while, at least as long as the online shop got money from the government to cover losses while making employees piss in bottles.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#49

Most discussions about this topic somehow seem to assume that people enjoy returning stuff. They don’t. It’s effort One of the key unresolved problems in fashion retail remains the crazy, unreliable sizing systems. Just because you are size $X at one brand, doesn’t mean you’re size $X at another. Also, the majority of brands only cater to average body proportions. Slim feet? Tall? Good luck!

> Just because you are size $X at one brand, doesn’t mean you’re size $X at another In my experience it’s worse than that. Buying from the same brand, sometimes even the same item (or its successor), results in wildy different fitment. I’ve strictly returned to brick and mortar. It’s so much more convenient buying something that fits.

Buy several sizes, return the ones that don't fit.

This seems a bit nonsensical to me however I am reliably informed that this is the modern way.

Re: Kiss your free returns goodbye

#50
post #29

Most discussions about this topic somehow seem to assume that people enjoy returning stuff. They don’t. It’s effort One of the key unresolved problems in fashion retail remains the crazy, unreliable sizing systems. Just because you are size $X at one brand, doesn’t mean you’re size $X at another. Also, the majority of brands only cater to average body proportions. Slim feet? Tall? Good luck!

Several start-up companies have attempted to resolve that problem in fashion retail by scanning customers' bodies and building 3D models in order to verify fit. But none of them have really taken off. Besides the technical and manufacturing issues, customers have their own idiosyncratic preferences about how loose or tight they like their clothes for comfort and aesthetics.

Given the other comments about the inherent size variability in creating the actual clothing, no wonder anyone trying to measure the customer but not the cloths is riding a dead horse.
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