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Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

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Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#571

Post by scarface74 »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #557
scarface74 wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So name 10 companies that are paying what Microsoft is paying that are profitable and haven’t announced layoffs? And that doesn’t include meaningless “equity” in a private company.

Microsoft often pays less than half what the other big tech companies pay, so it's actually not that hard to beat Or you could take a tiny pay cut but go 100% remote and move wherever you want in the world Another thing to consider is that most companies are working on much easier stuff than the type of problems you face at a company like Microsoft. My first tech job, we had an ex-Microsoftie there. The dude basicall…

And even less than half…paying over $200K is still more than your average senior CRUD/Enterprise developer makes in most major cities in the US.

That’s not meant to be an insult. I spent over 2 decades as your average CRUD developer and only fell into BigTech in 2020 because I added cloud to my toolbelt

Now I wouldn’t have move from my big house in the Atlanta burbs where I was making $160K for the mid 200s. And the only reason I was even interested in my current job was that it was permanently remote.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#572

Post by csa »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #269
csa wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> high performing employees are now effectively taking a massive pay cut due to the salary freeze and inflation? If any “high-performing employee” feels like they are taking a “massive pay cut” merely due to inflation, then something is wrong. Either they were grossly underpaid to begin with (change jobs, it can be done if you’re that good and that low paid), they aren’t actually that good (so total comp package, inc…

What is the natural conclusion of your argument? That if you make “enough”, you shouldn’t make more? Hogwash.

The natural conclusion is that jobs (at least in the US) are a type of labor market. There is push and pull on both sides.

During the pandemic, the market heavily favored employees. The market now favors employers.

The direction of the price of labor seems to have been more or less appropriate during each of these periods.

On a personal level, I don’t have much sympathy for folks whose worst experience in a labor downturn is simply not getting an inflation adjustment — it’s about the mildest correction in defined labor costs/benefits that can happen to them. I don’t think these folks realize how close to having no job they and/or their current peers actually are — that would really suck.

To the issue of whether MS should make this move or not (esp. given their financials), that’s a different issue. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I think that there will be quite a bit of quiet total comp boosts to favored folks — RSUs, retention bonuses, spot bonuses, promotions, “promotions” (e.g., different title, same job), etc.

Salary curves are rarely smooth and unidirectional over the course of a career. Most folks, in fact, will have a very spiky salary curve. I think many folks who came into tech after 2009 or so just haven’t seen or experienced this spiky curve, and their limiter range of expectations is showing.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#573

Post by _huayra_ »

Thorrez wrote: post #495
_huayra_ wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still new at the company, but it seems like promotions are basically (at best) the accumulated COLA adjustments one ought to have been given, but they make it seem like some performance-based thing. Indeed, I have a RSU vesting schedule 4 years from hire. It is financially unwise to stay beyond that on-hire grant vesting period, it seems.

What are new people hired in at? Inflation adjusted, are they being hired in at the a lower rate than the older employees were hired in at?

Everyone is hired in at a somewhat market rate, but it's the older employees who have become complacent and don't want to leave that are being underpaid. I know Blind is basically programmer 4chan, but if any TC postings on there are correct, I'm making more as a developer than some people who claimed to have worked their way up from junior dev and and are now manager :/

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#574

Post by alephnerd »

ladberg wrote: post #551
erhaetherth wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TC should have been over 200 w/ stock unless you're straight out of college.

I graduated in 2020, so not far off!

That makes sense! I was giving early career ranges in Chicago in the mid-2010s (without factoring in bonus). NYC PropTrading salaries are (unsurprisingly) higher.

That said, mid-career (5-7 YoE) tech in the Bay Area at least reaches around $170-250k base with an additional $100-400k in stock+bonus over the 4 year vest.

Factoring in hours worked it seemed more competitive than around $200-300k TC for SWEs at the larger PropTrading firms in Chicago at least.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#575

Post by remote_phone »

UncleMeat wrote: post #550
remote_phone wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the average raise then

I'd need to know the full distribution of MRP% for that. All I'm saying is that merit lines were not such that it was possible for the mean raise to be 1%. It requires way less data to see this.

So you don’t have the data but you know that the mean raise for SI is not 1%. Basically “Trust me bro!”

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#576

Post by throw9away6 »

scarface74 wrote: post #569
throw9away6 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but your investment from the home made up some of the difference possibly depending on when you bought. That’s a different source of wealth and one not everyone has.

Not an investment - more of an inflation hedge. Yes I realize that a primary home can be considered an investment. But that’s an often argued rabbit hole that I really don’t want to go down.

It’s a leveraged investment with a tax benefit and some government subsidy. Living in it is the tax Benefit portion.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#577

Post by ChrisHyung »

makeitdouble wrote: post #512
ChrisHyung wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it actually help with inflationary spending? The Fed making a play at depressing wages and increasing unemployment is what's keeping inflation in check. God knows the rich won't ever pay their fair share.

That reminds me of this hilarious interview of a British economist: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65308769 > Somehow in the UK, someone needs to accept that they're worse off and stop trying to maintain their real spending power [...] You're both totally right that giving people enough money to live might increase the inflation. But that's not an option people are (rightly so) going to be happy with. "Just be m…

I'm not for crushing the American people to curb inflation either, but that's the play J Pow is making. From an economics perspective, it does help the construction worker if higher wage earners spend less money.

I've been one of the people hurt most by this, and I'm not happy about it either. Software Developers doing mental gymnastics to align themselves with the investor elite instead of their fellow working class Americans is some shit.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#578

Post by scarface74 »

throw9away6 wrote: post #576
scarface74 wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an investment - more of an inflation hedge. Yes I realize that a primary home can be considered an investment. But that’s an often argued rabbit hole that I really don’t want to go down.

It’s a leveraged investment with a tax benefit and some government subsidy. Living in it is the tax Benefit portion.

It’s not really a tax benefit for most people.

87% of taxpayers take the standard deduction. That means at most 13% of taxpayers take advantage of the homeowner’s tax deduction on interest.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#579

Post by dahwolf »

People, wake up and smell the coffee.

A decade of interest-free money firehosing + demand explosion from COVID is over. The "normal" you cling to with double digit growth, insanely high salaries and benefits, and budgets of billions to work on stupid stuff that will never ship was never normal, it's an outlier.

The overspending needs to be corrected. Markets are stagnant and their auto-growth has stopped. Now that money is expensive and inflation yet still high, it means that whatever you work on needs to have a sky high return on investment, otherwise it's simply setting money on fire. Hence everyone reallocating to AI, the only growth market.

Hiking interest rates is a fancy word for planned economic destruction. It's very goal is to reduce demand. It comes with layoffs and cost cutting, as that is the thing that suppresses demand.

My point being, if you're still in a well paying job, take it on the chin. This isn't the time. Sit still when being shaven.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#580

Post by heleninboodler »

jwestbury wrote: post #528
heleninboodler wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, getting double the salary increase last year and zero salary increase this year instead of a layoff isn't a bad deal.

It's a shit deal. Microsoft's compensation is already well below competitors unless you're at the partner level or higher. They absolutely haemorrhage talent at lower levels, but hang on to low performances who just can't get a job elsewhere. Last year's increases were explicitly intended to bring Microsoft's pay closer to industry standards. By now saying, "Whoops, we accidentally gave you too much," it's clear that…

I'm talking about the basic math, absent all other factors. Given a choice between an N% raise two years in a row or a 2N% raise on the first year, the latter is more money.

You choose, base salary is 100k and target raise is 10% two years in a row or 20% in the first year only. Do you want $120k + $120k or do you want $110k + $121k?

This involves the assumption that the "no raise" year is a one-off event to offset the double raises the previous year. It's a good deal.

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