Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#541

Post by vertis » Thu, May 11, 2023, 11:57 AM UTC

sublinear wrote: post #534

heywhatupboys wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, we agree now that software engineers are not working-class people by any common or accepted terminology?

I still strongly reject your definition of "working class". It's not the common definition by many miles amongst many significant crowds.

It's a long term evolving thing

> The working class is classically defined as that class which must sell its labour-power in order to survive.[0]

It does go on to define working class as essentially blue collar workers, even highly skilled ones. Which would exclude software engineering.

Though I think it should include anyone for which they aren't earning enough to eventually become financially independent through their labour. This would then include quite a number of white collar workers. Certainly there are software engineers outside the silicon valley bubble for which this is true, especially in parts of Asia and India.

A good litmus test is if you feel you should join a union then you're probably working class and if you feel secure negotiating your own pay then you're probably not any more. Though I doubt this fits a traditional definition of working class.

[0]: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority...

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#542

Post by dubeye » Thu, May 11, 2023, 12:15 PM UTC

Sounds like a 'cheap' way of asking to whole workfoce for voluntary redudancy to me.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#543

Post by musha68k » Thu, May 11, 2023, 12:20 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #512

ChrisHyung wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it actually help with inflationary spending? The Fed making a play at depressing wages and increasing unemployment is what's keeping inflation in check. God knows the rich won't ever pay their fair share.

That reminds me of this hilarious interview of a British economist: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65308769 > Somehow in the UK, someone needs to accept that they're worse off and stop trying to maintain their real spending power [...] You're both totally right that giving people enough money to live might increase the inflation. But that's not an option people are (rightly so) going to be happy with. "Just be m…

Inflation seems to mainly be driven by corporate profits (>50%) in the first place: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35795299

The current situation is completely absurd.

In addition there also is no skin in the game here, over-hiring or other blunders on core leadership competencies don't matter at all as long as "shareholder value" isn't negatively affected in the short term.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#544

Post by nunez » Thu, May 11, 2023, 12:22 PM UTC

sublinear wrote: post #470

heywhatupboys wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> salaried workers need a cost of living adjustment at the very least Software engineers are some of the most priviledged workers in the west when it comes to compensation and perks. We need to stop talking about them like they are road construction workers here on HN. it is really out of touch

Maybe it's different in other places, but have you seen the paychecks of some construction workers? Sure they are working in potentially hazardous conditions, but the pay can be about the same for similarly tenured workers. It's important to remember that if you're working for a living, you're still working class.

Lol tell that to the actively working doctors, lawyers and c-suite execs living in the fanciest neighborhoods of their respective cities that own moderate to significant controlling portions of companies

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#545

Post by pnt12 » Thu, May 11, 2023, 12:30 PM UTC

throw123123123 wrote: post #516

somenameforme wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many small businesses seek to treat their employees well. It's not out of some ulterior 5D chess profit seeking scheme, nor is it out of naivete of the fact that they could earn more. But simply out of having some degree of social values and ethics. Wanting to make a profit or to become rich, isn't the same as being willing to screw everybody (or anybody) over in pursuit of such. In America today only 57% [1] of peop…

It's not related to capitalism or labor organization. It's that the relationship between profits and wages is misunderstood. If you want your income to be completely tied to the business results, you want to be a business owner. There is no sociopathy, it is a simple enterprise where someone absorbs the risk and others don't - it is collaboration.

That's the status quo - a distinction between owner and employee. And it's good for the owners, who get to maximize profits - but is it good for employees? I'd say there's less risk, but they get impacted when business is down, and may not reap the profits when business is good.

Some companies are experimenting with other models - there's no law or force of nature saying an employee can't be a partial owner of a business.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#546

Post by ericd » Thu, May 11, 2023, 12:47 PM UTC

Hermitian909 wrote: post #486

ericd wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An investment that’s insulated from risk generally has a negative real return (at least as long as the risk-free rate is negative). Insurance via options is very expensive.

The idea I'm trying to convey is not no risk it's risk capped at tolerable levels for plausible outcomes (index funds can go to zero in principle). The latter is often an option that is available to capital holders. Employment conversely, is almost always placing all your eggs in your employer's basket. If the basket tumbles many employees will lose their shirt in a big way.

Ah ok. Software engineers typically make enough relative to cost of living to sock away quite a bit of savings, though? So losing their job and having to find a new one isn’t usually enough to lose their shirt.

And I feel like the recent bull run has made people forget that stock as a class can be extremely risky. Like the entire market going to 1/10 its former value risky (peak to trough in the Great Depression, the indices lost 90% of their value).

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#547

Post by lostmsu » Thu, May 11, 2023, 1:19 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #539

fingerlocks wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And my position is that teaching you to install a toilet without causing water damage by turning the shutoff valve 90 degrees is in no way comparable to teaching c-suites to code.

Your comparison is wrong Installing a toilet is more like wroting a bash/shell script that is 99% googleable - most people can figure it out in a weekend Writing a whole applocation is more like doing plumbing for an industrial installation. that handles hangerous chemicals

That may be true but that's not the type of plumber people think about when you just say "plumber".

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#548

Post by byyyy » Thu, May 11, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

NoPicklez wrote: post #264

byyyy wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that the stock could've been bought with or without the raise? Buying stock does not magically eliminate the need for a raise.

I don't think they said that. They said that as an employee you can buy the stock and see yourself a slight raise in that regard. If an internal raise isn't on the cards.

And I'm saying this strategy does absolutely nothing to alleviate the need for an actual raise.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#549

Post by throw9away6 » Thu, May 11, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #425

throw9away6 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wages can simply stay flat and that’s a 5% decrease due to inflation

People keep quoting this as religion. Making up numbers: If I only spend 50% of my take home and part of that 50% is going toward my fixed rate mortgage, is my spending power down by 5%?

Yes, but your investment from the home made up some of the difference possibly depending on when you bought. That’s a different source of wealth and one not everyone has.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#550

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, May 11, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

remote_phone wrote: post #362

UncleMeat wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen the merit lines. Not that many people are at MRP%s that would generate 0% raises for the bulk of SI performers.

What was the average raise then

I'd need to know the full distribution of MRP% for that. All I'm saying is that merit lines were not such that it was possible for the mean raise to be 1%. It requires way less data to see this.