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Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

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Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#521

Post by nforgerit »

fingerlocks wrote: post #519
saagarjha wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous, but perhaps I haven’t fully explained my position? I have never installed a toilet but I’m confident that I could go into a store and buy one, and the instructions are probably straightforward. That said, I would probably still call a plumber because the risk of me doing it wrong seems uncomfortably high, and I could end up with a smelly mess or thousands of dollars in water damage.

And my position is that teaching you to install a toilet without causing water damage by turning the shutoff valve 90 degrees is in no way comparable to teaching c-suites to code.

I'd love to see a suit fixing his toilet

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#522

Post by BulgarianIdiot »

pb7 wrote: post #232
BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unclear why you keep explaining how options work. No one said otherwise. And it's also a fact BOTH options and grants are given to employees, depending. I didn't use one instead of the other, and frankly the existence of this entire thread is a bizarre amusement to me at this point.

You understand other people can read and learn, right? >And stock does go up. It's Microsoft. Otherwise you can... just not use the option. And lose the equity portion of your compensation, unlike stock grants. You don’t seem to get the nuance but you are so desperately trying to dismiss my point.

What nuance do I not get, buddy, you're literally quoting me saying it. Yes, if the stock doesn't go up, you get nothing. I said this myself. This is an incentive for employees to work for increasing the value of the company.

What is it you think I'm missing here at all? You're pissed employees get nothing if stock doesn't go up? You think I'm missing that? No, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF OPTIONS.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#523

Post by heywhatupboys »

vineyardmike wrote: post #507
heywhatupboys wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> salaried workers need a cost of living adjustment at the very least Software engineers are some of the most priviledged workers in the west when it comes to compensation and perks. We need to stop talking about them like they are road construction workers here on HN. it is really out of touch

There's more to Microsoft than software engineers, even if there probably aren't many road construction workers. Most working-class people should get their COL adjustment. It should be easily taken from excess profits from raising prices.

Software engineers aren't working-class

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#524

Post by saagarjha »

fingerlocks wrote: post #519
saagarjha wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous, but perhaps I haven’t fully explained my position? I have never installed a toilet but I’m confident that I could go into a store and buy one, and the instructions are probably straightforward. That said, I would probably still call a plumber because the risk of me doing it wrong seems uncomfortably high, and I could end up with a smelly mess or thousands of dollars in water damage.

And my position is that teaching you to install a toilet without causing water damage by turning the shutoff valve 90 degrees is in no way comparable to teaching c-suites to code.

The water damage would occur over months and years, eventually requiring an expensive remodel and repair of the floor underneath. Not a personal story because I don’t own a home but, you know, it happens.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#526

Post by sublinear »

heywhatupboys wrote: post #509
sublinear wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's different in other places, but have you seen the paychecks of some construction workers? Sure they are working in potentially hazardous conditions, but the pay can be about the same for similarly tenured workers. It's important to remember that if you're working for a living, you're still working class.

> It's important to remember that if you're working for a living, you're still working class. absolutely not. "the social group consisting primarily of people who are employed in unskilled or semi-skilled manual or industrial work." ""Working class" is a socioeconomic term used to describe persons in a social class marked by jobs that provide low pay, require limited skill, " comparing software engineers with factory…

> Most SE's wouldn't survive a week in hard labor work.

Respectfully, speak for yourself. This isn't as rare, or as difficult imo, as you think it is. I'm speaking from a lot of disadvantage. It is what it is.

> require limited skill

Isn't this site usually full of people whining about smooth talkers with no skill? I know I've whined a lot about that. Also is what it is. The world is only unforgiving to those with narrow perspectives.

Generally, what you do for a living isn't as significant as what you learn and do with the experience gained. It's your choice to commit to what you do, or you can keep growing. Up to you.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#527

Post by heywhatupboys »

sublinear wrote: post #526
heywhatupboys wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important to remember that if you're working for a living, you're still working class. absolutely not. "the social group consisting primarily of people who are employed in unskilled or semi-skilled manual or industrial work." ""Working class" is a socioeconomic term used to describe persons in a social class marked by jobs that provide low pay, require limited skill, " comparing software engineers with factory…

> Most SE's wouldn't survive a week in hard labor work. Respectfully, speak for yourself. This isn't as rare, or as difficult imo, as you think it is. I'm speaking from a lot of disadvantage. It is what it is. > require limited skill Isn't this site usually full of people whining about smooth talkers with no skill? I know I've whined a lot about that. Also is what it is. The world is only unforgiving to those with na…

So, we agree now that software engineers are not working-class people by any common or accepted terminology?

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#528

Post by jwestbury »

heleninboodler wrote: post #487
gigel82 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't double the salary budget, that was such a well played PR bs by MS. They doubled the "salary increase" budget for lower levels (so instead of getting a 1% increase per year, they'd give out 2% - to the lower levels). I talked with a friend at MS and they said not only are they not getting any increase at all this year, the stock and bonus are going down to (or even lower than) last year's levels (before th…

Even so, getting double the salary increase last year and zero salary increase this year instead of a layoff isn't a bad deal.

It's a shit deal. Microsoft's compensation is already well below competitors unless you're at the partner level or higher. They absolutely haemorrhage talent at lower levels, but hang on to low performances who just can't get a job elsewhere.

Last year's increases were explicitly intended to bring Microsoft's pay closer to industry standards. By now saying, "Whoops, we accidentally gave you too much," it's clear that Microsoft has no interest in paying at industry-standard levels.

And to be clear: Microsoft is already laying people off. This isn't an either-or. In fact, their layoffs are probably the worst-handled in the industry, as they've been smeared across months, meaning Microsoft engineers have spent months in a state of anxiety, worried they might be included in the next batch, as each batch is only a few weeks apart. The best reason to work at Microsoft was the stability, but now they pay less and offer less stability than many competitors -- at least at Google or Amazon, you knew immediately if you were in the group being laid off.

(Sources for all of this: Former Microsoft SRE. I have friends and former colleagues at Microsoft who span from junior engineers to upper-level principal, i.e. 67. Personally, I nearly doubled my income two years after leaving Microsoft for another tech company.)

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#529

Post by jwestbury »

srj wrote: post #340
Firmwarrior wrote: post #308

Man oh man. Microsoft really just has no interest in keeping motivated and talented people around. The brain drain is going to ramp up even more from here If you're still at MSFT: do yourself a favor and jump ship. It's a good job, but there are even better jobs out there. Just tell the recruiter when you get your new job offer that you've been drinking $5,000 a year's worth of free soda, and you'll need them to matc…

There have been so many layoffs that there is a glut of software engineers looking for jobs. The company's leadership knows that now, with labor supply up, they don't need to pay people the compensation they're currently paying. This is a way of reducing pay in real terms while not taking the more dramatic step of cutting wages. If things turn around again hopefully people remember this. This wasn't a shared hardship…

> The company's leadership knows that now, with labor supply up, they don't need to pay people the compensation they're currently paying.

This isn't accurate and hasn't been for some time. Microsoft's engineers are lower-quality than their peers, because Microsoft has been offering lower compensation than their peers -- by a substantial amount -- for over a decade now.

Maybe lower-level engineers don't really matter. I don't know. But unless you're at the partner level, you're getting paid a lot less at Microsoft than you would be elsewhere, and in light in recent events, you're not even benefiting from the stability you'd get elsewhere. I suspect this will have long-term impacts on Microsoft as they continue to lose talented engineers at the lower levels, but no longer have talented old-timers around at the higher levels. Once people at the 67+ level start retiring en masse, I'm not sure Microsoft actually has the talent to replace them.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#530

Post by sandos »

Weird. Here in Sweden we get, generally, a higher wage increase than normally. IT included, as far as I know. Honestly I think people would try jumping ship qiuckly if they did not get a yearly increase. On other hand, maybe thats the intended result. I guess the difference is that the compensation levels in IT here are not, and were never, close to the stratospheric levels as in the US.
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