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Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

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Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#431

Post by heywhatupboys »

korginator wrote: post #365

With the rate of inflation and interest rates going up, salaried workers need a cost of living adjustment at the very least, even if we forget about a bonus or a big pay hike. This decision is unethical to full-time employees seeing the tidy profit they made. It's a clear signal to the employees not to expect any practical reward for hard work, what a great way to motivate people. This is yet another large and powerf…

> salaried workers need a cost of living adjustment at the very least

Software engineers are some of the most priviledged workers in the west when it comes to compensation and perks. We need to stop talking about them like they are road construction workers here on HN. it is really out of touch

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#432

Post by fsociety »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #350
jasmer wrote: post #296

In year of fairly high inflation this is a big deal and I don't suggest it will go down well. To be a bit cynically Machiavellian ... 'any' kind of raise would have allowed them to at least avoid the 'no raise' kind of language. This feels like a short sighted tactic - the economy is doing 'well enough' and MS is definitely forward looking at this point, this is going to be a bit of subtle 'sand in the gears'.

Where are these employees going to go?

Startups.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#433

Post by com2kid »

8note wrote: post #377
tombert wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really have no idea what communism has to do with anything so I'll ignore that part. I'm sure a good percentage of these people quit jobs specifically to work at Microsoft. When they quit those jobs, their employer probably filled that position. Then Microsoft fired those people, and it's likely that a lot of people were unable to go back to their previous positions. This isn't even taking to account people who mov…

You're really downplaying the agency of people who accepted these jobs and their own risk analyses. Selling your house and moving for a job in a clearly ridiculous job market is going all in on a gamble. Much moreso than nadella did

Microsoft has traditionally been a very safe employer, who typically does a very good job of maintaining revenue per employee.

Of course Microsoft also historically benefitted from housing in the surrounding area being 1/2 to 1/3rd what it was in the bay area, so they could pay a lot less. Now that good family housing around MS campus starts at 1.5m, MS has been forced to increase salaries dramatically.

> Selling your house and moving for a job in a clearly ridiculous job market is going all in on a gamble.

Tech hiring had been crazy for years before the pandemic, IMHO pandemic hiring in tech didn't stand out as being particularly odd. Of course looking at the numbers afterwards, we can see how much companies grew, but no one applying for a job in Jan 2021 knew that Microsoft intended to hire 40K people that year.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#434

Post by andsoitis »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #308

Man oh man. Microsoft really just has no interest in keeping motivated and talented people around. The brain drain is going to ramp up even more from here If you're still at MSFT: do yourself a favor and jump ship. It's a good job, but there are even better jobs out there. Just tell the recruiter when you get your new job offer that you've been drinking $5,000 a year's worth of free soda, and you'll need them to matc…

> The brain drain is going to ramp up even more from here

Where to, pray tell?

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#435

Post by glenngillen »

I wrote up some notes on my observed realities on how mid-size and up tech companies approach compensation: https://glenngillen.com/sensible-remote-compensation/

Employees have a mistaken belief that if profits are high they get to share in the spoils, they won't. Shareholders are who get those rewards. Either via increased valuation, dividends, buybacks, or all of the above. The only exception to that would be employees at an exec level who get richly rewarded on the basis of doing well for the shareholders.

Employees also seem to think they're entitled to receive payrises every year based on their performance, indexed/adjusted to account for CPI increases too. That's not what happens either.

Your employer isn't maximising for the socially and morally optimum outcome for their employees no matter how much they tell you you're family. The maximising for return on investment. When it comes to what to pay people, or how much to increase it, it's just a huge bunch of faceless and nameless people. Some finance people will look at the numbers, look at the market, look at the company forecasts, and make a decision on how much they're willing to spend to reach their objectives. And I guess this year they've taken a look and come to the conclusion that "there's been so many lay offs, the job market it so competitive for candidates, we're already doing enough. We can maintain the status quo, any negative impact will be imperceptible, we're still expected to reach our targets. So why pay more?".

It's worth learning how to advocate for yourself more strongly. If you're surprised by changes like this and having to negotiate strongly for your own salary it's because you've been the beneficiary or a hot market for a long time where external forces were driving that negotiation on your behalf. Times have changed.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#436

Post by bruce511 »

korginator wrote: post #365

With the rate of inflation and interest rates going up, salaried workers need a cost of living adjustment at the very least, even if we forget about a bonus or a big pay hike. This decision is unethical to full-time employees seeing the tidy profit they made. It's a clear signal to the employees not to expect any practical reward for hard work, what a great way to motivate people. This is yet another large and powerf…

>> This decision is unethical to full-time employees

It's easy to mark any decision as "unethical" depending on your viewpoint. Indeed ethics are, to a large degree, highly subjective.

I might suggest that eating meat is unethical, or I might think whaling is unethical but beef farming is ok, or I might be completely ok consuming any meat since we're omnivores and meat is part of our diet. None of this is material though, and all points are equally valid, since ethics are subjective and personal.

So I've no problem with you considering this unethical, or even mentioning that you consider this to be unethical. An employee, who didn't negotiate an appropriate contract, would likely feel bad about this, and would thus maybe fall back on "unethical".

However from a business point of view it's completely ethical. The contract between an employer and employee is a simple business relationship. Their responsibilities and powers are clearly laid out. Setting increases and bonus's is clearly (for most of us) a mandate given to employers. In some cases (where unions are involved) the mandate falls over both the employer and the union.

Of course employers care about employees (in most companies anyway.) If only because a mass departure would be bad. They also have other considerations though, customers, shareholders, sustainability, future profitability and so on. They are constantly balancing many levers to try and keep "everyone happy". Usually this means the love has to be spread around a bit, not everyone is going to get everything they want.

Does this mean it's always in balance? no of course not. Currently (in the US) there's probably too much of a lean towards shareholders - both in artificially increasing stock prices, and also in prioritizing returns. In other places labor is stronger and the balance is away from shareholders. In another time, and another place, there's reasonable balance for a while.

For me personally, it's hard to feel sorry for FAANG employees, who've been living large for years and now (shock, horror) aren't going to get increases. Oh no, that 100K you're getting isn't enough? My heart bleeds for you. Said no Uber-driver ever...

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#437

Post by andsoitis »

greenthrow wrote: post #413
scarface74 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and go where? Google, Facebook and Amazon are laying off people and it would be crazy to work for one of the many non profitable private or public tech compabies.

There's literally thousands of other employers out there desperate for good tech people.

> desperate for good tech people

…great people don’t want to be held back by average people.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#438

Post by [deleted] »

csomar wrote: post #391
thekashifmalik wrote: post #329

I don't understand the framing here; isn't salary dependent on job competition in the market (one which is currently full of layoffs) and has little to do with company profts? Bonuses are what are usually tied to company performance. I'm simplifying, of course, but trying to understand the issue.

There is nothing to understand. There are two classes: Shareholders and Employees. Always been. One take the risk and reward and one take a fixed salary. Some people want to have their cake and eat it too (ie: take a fixed/stable salary while also a slice of the profit).

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#439

Post by tombert »

anon291 wrote: post #379
tombert wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it feels almost self-evident that you shouldn't hire more people than you need; if you don't need them then that's not an efficient use of resources. Now, it's possible they hired all these people in anticipation of future needs, which is fair, but it doesn't take a hyper-genius to know that markets fluctuate, particularly after a global pandemic. So at this point, either Satya Nadella is so stupid that he di…

> I mean, it feels almost self-evident that you shouldn't hire more people than you need; if you don't need them then that's not an efficient use of resources. The entire point of a low interest rate economy is that, if you have a bunch of cash, you need to put it into something other than a savings account in order to make anything of it. From that perspective, simply paying engineers to sit and twiddle their thumbs…

I suppose that’s fair. Maybe Satya isn’t a moron, and is just a sociopath who gambles with humans.

Re: Microsoft Freezes Salaries for 2023

#440

Post by Arainach »

achates wrote: post #417
korginator wrote: post #365

With the rate of inflation and interest rates going up, salaried workers need a cost of living adjustment at the very least, even if we forget about a bonus or a big pay hike. This decision is unethical to full-time employees seeing the tidy profit they made. It's a clear signal to the employees not to expect any practical reward for hard work, what a great way to motivate people. This is yet another large and powerf…

Wages are a function of the supply and demand for labor. If the business loses money the employees don't have to chip in money to make up the loss, but on the flip side they don't share in profits.

>if business loses money the employees don't have to chip in money to make up the loss

They absolutely do (either in slashed jobs or benefits), they just don't get a say in it

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