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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually its over 70% of kids in USA grow up with two parents still. 50 years ago it was 85%, but that would have been with a lot of unhappy and abusive marriages that now with no-fault divorce are able to be dissolved. Also child sexual and physical abuse has reduced during this same time frame. "According to David Finkelhor who tracked Child Maltreatment Report (NCANDS) data from 1990 to 2010, sexual abuse had decl…

What's the relationship between abusive marriages and no-fault divorce? Won't abusive people be the easiest to divorce with fault?

Fault divorce is more expensive and requires burden of proof.

Abuse isn't always reported, and abusers often manipulate or lie.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a cheating doctor would prescribe / perform unnecessary drugs / procedures / surgeries for personal gain or out of carelessness.

This is basically how western medicine operates in the US to begin with.

That's blatantly untrue. The primary criticism to Western medicine is that is has a high cost because doctors are afraid of being sued for malpractice and order lots of unnecessary and invasive tests to confirm any diagnosis before ordering a treatment. It's basically the exact opposite of what you say, which when taken to the extreme is also problematic.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#443
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that means the culture is also broken. Credit isn’t something you can steal in the dead of night; everyone knows who did the work. At some point, if someone says their company hires cheaters, promotes thieves, and has a culture that celebrates those things. . . either there is more to the story or that person needs to run like hell because the company is toxic.

Many "upper management" types have no idea who actually did the work.

They care more about “who made it happen”.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#445
It's not surprising to me that people cheat or don't see cheating as bad. Cheaters literally do prosper. Like in college applications, you can absolutely write lies. Nobody's going to check if you were captain of the track team. Nobody's going to fact check your essay about how you came out as gay[1].

Even the people who don't cheat understand how to stretch and bend the truth. You take a minor event and turn it into a whole college essay. You take a side project and turn it into a supposed startup. Hackathons are competitions for who can lie the best and claim their flashy front end will change the world. There was a period where the same project won hackathon after hackathon. And sure, hackathons are not exactly a big deal. But if you're cheating at a hackathon, why not cheat at a job interview?

So much of what we teach in school these days is how to play the game, how to appear more impressive than you are, how to trick people into believing you're smarter than other people.

[1]: Both of these are first-hand experiences, i.e. I knew the people who did them

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#446

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

at a "top five" USA public University a couple of decades ago, it was indeed shocking to see calculated, methodical cheating on exams and study material.. for example a group would keep the significant test material from previous years with corrections, or coordinate homework assignments between a group and distribute the work load.. one person does one homework and gets five other homeworks for 'filter' classes handed to them..

I could easily say "ethnic Chinese" and be accurate, but what about the mid-IQ Frat guys from the "fly-over" states? all pale skins.. So I thought about it at the time and it seemed like sports teams, fraternities, strong social ties with a lot at stake.. those groups, not ethnicity, were a common theme.

In my own wanderings, since travelling internationally and gaining some maturity, I believe that calling out an ethnicity is indeed racist in a mild way. I agree with both "lots of students from India cheated" and "I am concerned about ethnic stereotype" .. both have some basis in reality.. We as animals are wired to see "us" and "other" .. so.. you have to choose to apply some sense and mercy, or not.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather my doctor look up an answer in a medical textbook rather than "not cheat" and allow me to die in adherence to the noble idea that only the ideas we can keep in our long-term memory are worthy.

Using reference works in the course of doing your job is not cheating.

Yes, if you're doing what the patient and the regulators want you to do, that ain't cheating.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#448
In my long computer career, I've only had a couple of times where someone got ahead of me by lying or misrepresenting their skills. When working with such people, it's pretty obvious to most that they don't know what they're doing. While I have also been a very helpful person, I have a rule: I refuse to help someone who has misrepresented their skills. This type of person has no problem lying to get ahead then expecting everyone to help them out when they get in trouble. And that occurs frequently of course, because they are in over their head.

First example was when I was the tech lead on a huge Ford project. I was only 20, doing great, Ford loved me, but the computer company I worked for (Prime) was uneasy about relying so much on a 20 y/o in his 2nd year of college for this huge project. So they hired a new guy, a Pakistani with a degree who wore a suit everyday and had a glowing resume (apparently). First, the guy was nearly impossible to understand. Second, he didn't know shit. Third, instead of spending his time reading through manuals to figure things out, he'd just ask me since his cube was next to mine. My standard answer was "I don't know". He could have asked me what color grass is and that would have been my answer. They kept him a few months, fired him when it became obvious he couldn't do shit on his own, and put me back on the account.

The other time was when a contract project manager at IBM decided he wanted to work on a project that was supposed to be for me. I was still busy with a previous IBM project (he was my project manager on that) and couldn't start for a couple of months, and since IBM was in a hurry, the project manager told them he could do it. He was a great project manager, but not even a good programmer. His previous technical experience was more with hardware. After a few months, I got called in to review his work because he kept saying he would be done in a week. I met with him, found out he didn't even have this thing compiling without errors (it was a platform conversion of a large CAD program), and he asked me if I'd help him. I said no, even though it was very hard for me to do that. I met with IBM, they asked me if I could take it over and finish it. I told them I could do it but would not be able to use any of his work, especially since he hadn't made much progress. They fired him, gave me the contract, and it was finished in a couple of months.

So if you run into people who have cheated to get where they are, don't help them, no matter how nice you are or how bad it might make you feel. They don't deserve your help and will have to qualms about taking a promotion over you, even though they couldn't have done it without your help.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#449
post #257

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected . The reality (speaking from experience) may be that international stud…

If you're wondering why international students are so lucrative, it is because the majority of them they pay full price for tuition. This is particularly noticeable at state colleges/universities because those institutions have to provide in-state residents a significant discount.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess “trust” was at an all time high when there were literally laws against Black people being in the same section as White people, sundown towns in the south and laws against black people marrying white people?

Not every facet of society is related to racism. Saying I prefer the days of a single income being enough to survive on doesn't mean I wish black's and women had less rights. It's an orthogonal point. Wages are gone because manufacturing moved overseas in the same time period, etc...

Those were the same days…

I assure you that “the good old days” weren’t so good for my still living parents growing up in the segregated south.

As far as “not everything being related to race”, tell that to my parents who grew up in the 60s and 70s when everything was related to their race there those were the good old days.

They literally weren’t “trusted” to drink out of the same water fountain, go to the same schools or swim in the same pool.

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