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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#391

Post by JohnFen »

hermannj314 wrote: post #153
knicholes wrote: post #129

If one considers Kant's categorical imperative, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law," then also considers how they'd feel if they were go to visit a doctor who had cheated or is cheating, one certainly must draw the conclusion that cheating is indeed immoral and undesirable.

I'd rather my doctor look up an answer in a medical textbook rather than "not cheat" and allow me to die in adherence to the noble idea that only the ideas we can keep in our long-term memory are worthy.

Using reference works in the course of doing your job is not cheating.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#393

Post by JohnFen »

bumby wrote: post #368
asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

> Like, there was a time where this kind of personality type would just go get an MBA One nuance that may help explain how the change happened is how the status of CS has changed in the last 20 years. Maybe its just my age bias, but there seems to be a perceptible change of how CS majors are viewed by society and that changes the type of people attracted to that curriculum. It used to be that CS and engineering major…

> Anecdotally, when I ask people why they got into CS a surprising number now say something along the lines of "because it pays well."

Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's utterly depressing.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#394

Post by wing-_-nuts »

asimpletune wrote: post #191
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society Man, you crushed it here, so true.

I think you absolutely are cheating yourself if you cheat on something you're supposed to be learning. On the other hand, I have a tendency to be brutally honest about my own knowledge and capabilities, and it has bitten me multiple times.

I've gotten negative performance review feedback from management that was word for word from the 'things I think I can improve'. I've gotten passed over for jobs and promotions because I don't do a good enough job of 'selling' my experience.

Basically, the most successful software engineers I've met also have the ability to bullshit with the best used car salesmen, and it's hard to argue my unwillingness to do so hasn't held me back.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#395

Post by pkdpic »

raghudotcc wrote: post #372
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I am from India, and I just recently completed my Masters from a US university. I have never cheated in my life when it comes to interviews, exams, or assignments; not once. I am worried that calling us “low-trust” because of your experience with a few students might lead others to think that the entire country that is so diverse and large is comprised of just an incompetent set of cheaters. I agree that a lot of stu…

I was happy to see this comment but expected to see it much higher up. "low-trust" is obviously an established term but it's really giving me a bad feeling here. These are enormously diverse cultures and we only see a very specific filtered set of demographics that end up in the US / West.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#396

Post by mensetmanusman »

passion__desire wrote: post #255
scarface74 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because Americans never cheat to get ahead and we are all morally superior…

Americans cheat at earth-scale by bringing about into existence of intricate systems that benefit them immensely.

Bretton Woods was an own goal by Europe because they couldn’t stop killing each other for centuries. America benefited because immigrants who leave are typically quite bright and willing to take risks.

The perfect storm of incompetence created the system we inherited from our forefathers. It benefits Americans, but maybe the wealth is also killing us due to massive obesity and sedentary lifestyles on top of a greedy litigious society.

No system is perfect.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#397

Post by mchanson »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #355
red-iron-pine wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fake it till you make it" has been a thing for a long time -- hence the catchy phrase. When did this wonderful meritocracy exist? Where? I think back to Jobs and Woz, and how he got him to hack a project to win a contest, and then didn't tell Woz and kept the money. It's been here since day 1.

Some things are different structurally. Eg about 50 years ago most kids grew up with both of their parents, today it’s about half. Less adult time per child means a generation with far less formation. It has to collapse before it gets better, but it will take centuries to get back to Rome levels of violence and back stabbing.

Actually its over 70% of kids in USA grow up with two parents still. 50 years ago it was 85%, but that would have been with a lot of unhappy and abusive marriages that now with no-fault divorce are able to be dissolved.

Also child sexual and physical abuse has reduced during this same time frame. "According to David Finkelhor who tracked Child Maltreatment Report (NCANDS) data from 1990 to 2010, sexual abuse had declined 62% from 1992 to 2009 and the long-term trend for physical abuse was also down by 56% since 1992." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse

We have a lot of problems, but your understand of the issues are poor.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#398

Post by drivers99 »

mywittyname wrote: post #318
hoosieree wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I enjoy both woodworking and code golfing. There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Either the code is short, or it isn't. Either the chair supports your weight, or it breaks. I think I enjoy these pursuits as an antidote to the kind of software I have to deal with on a daily basis - it's the kind that is so complex there are "no obvious defic…

> There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Because of this statement, I feel like I finally understand the aversion in the woodworking community to pocketholes and CNCs.

How so? If it's objective, and a CNC or pockethole based chair holds up, wouldn't it be accepted?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#399

Post by harshalizee »

heelix wrote: post #27

I've done a lot of screening interviews and cheating does happen. Some of my favorites: * developer attempts to pass something off as video lag, as he attempts to lip sync someone else's answer. * developer had printed all the 'common' answers on the wall behind his computer, and would look up to them for reference as we were talking. Then the tape came off and covered him in a a paper stack overflow. * the glorious…

I don't understand how #2 and #3 would be considered cheating?

If they can still answer the question and show evidence that they understand it, what's wrong with reference materials and googling?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#400

Post by netfortius »

tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I assume such events are fairly common, at least in the US. I was once colleague with a [nationality to be preserved, to avoid expanded blame] guy in a CS graduate program, in the US, who had his sister (yes - different gender!) sitting a few exams for him, and passing them, of course.
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