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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#311

Post by wombatpm »

2devnull wrote: post #280
asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

Sadly it seems tech hiring wants to optimize for cheating by putting a lot of importance on tests and credentials. Deemphasize these, and assess candidates more holistically, and cheating is no longer a factor. It’s easy to cheat on a test, or get a credential you don’t deserve, but these are amazingly treated as the solution rather than the cause of cheating.

Credentials and test were seen as a way to remove interview bias from the process. So instead of cheaters you would end up with nothing but code bros

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#312

Post by red-iron-pine »

asimpletune wrote: post #191
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society Man, you crushed it here, so true.

"Fake it till you make it" has been a thing for a long time -- hence the catchy phrase.

When did this wonderful meritocracy exist? Where?

I think back to Jobs and Woz, and how he got him to hack a project to win a contest, and then didn't tell Woz and kept the money. It's been here since day 1.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#313

Post by vanjajaja1 »

halbritt wrote: post #289

To say nothing of the ethics of cheating, I think this behavior speaks to the value of the interview process. If it can be gamed so easily, it's likely not a great measure of the quality of the candidate and the companies that have implemented deserve the hires they make. It'd doubtful the folks at the company actually mind that the interviews are being cheated. If the candidates appear to be qualified and appear to…

the problem is that its a zero-sum game, you can only compare performance across a cohort. if the majority of your cohort cheats, and cheating hurts performance, then they'll all be low performance and you'll still end up promoting some of them (because thats just what happens)

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#315

Post by kristianbrigman »

spicyusername wrote: post #132
asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

I relate heavily to the spirit of your comments. Wouldn't we all be better off if we lived in a society that is built on trust and honesty. However, I think you're being a little naive if you think the days of "yesteryear" were somehow different in man's capacity and willingness to do what he needs to do to survive. I mean in every facet of life we're basically awash in never before seen capacity to benefit from dish…

Two fundamental truths:

- nature is inherently competitive. - civilization and culture temper this but requires vigilance to maintain.

The second implies that some cultures may be more effective at tempering nature’s excesses than others… and also that it can change in a way in which it becomes less or more effective, or at least effective for different things…

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#316

Post by scarface74 »

JohnFen wrote: post #260
scarface74 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

Business has always been about the greater benefit. Not solely (or primarily, from the business owner's perspective) about that, of course, but that aspect is the entire reason why government puts so much time, effort, and money into supporting business activities. If business is not at least in part about the greater benefit, then we need to stop wasting so many resources supporting it.

So when was this? When European businesses were exploiting the “new world”? When plantation owners were employing slaves? When robber barons were exploiting people and polluting the environment? The “greed is good” 80s? VCs throwing money at startups that they know will never be profitable waiting for the “greater fool”?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#317

Post by doctorh »

mattgibson wrote: post #3

TBF I don't think this is bad. The "cheating" involved seems a closer match to the actual real world conditions of the doing the job than the artificial "no internet allowed" assessment. If the candidates can get stuff done but need the internet as a reference, that's still getting stuff done. Not surprising that they are now getting promoted given they can not only get stuff done, but were resourceful enough to find…

If you're willing to go to such lengths in order to be deceptive, it reflects very badly on your moral character. I wouldn't want to work with people like that and we should not reward that kind of behavior.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#318

Post by mywittyname »

hoosieree wrote: post #177
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

This is why I enjoy both woodworking and code golfing. There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome. Either the code is short, or it isn't. Either the chair supports your weight, or it breaks. I think I enjoy these pursuits as an antidote to the kind of software I have to deal with on a daily basis - it's the kind that is so complex there are "no obvious defic…

> There's an inescapable objective success or failure indicator that no amount of posturing can overcome.

Because of this statement, I feel like I finally understand the aversion in the woodworking community to pocketholes and CNCs.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#319

Post by AdrianB1 »

welder wrote: post #258

I'm curious do they get promoted from cheating or really doing the work. There are those people who get stuff done by getting others to help them do it. Not sure how the manager would find out though, without the peers who help telling. Nice to see UT Dallas represented here, even if it's in this context.

I noticed during the years that the people that cheat in the interviews are not afraid to lie on results or steal colleagues' work and pretend it is theirs. When enough managers are fine with that, it becomes an internal open secret on how promotions work. When you also have targets for promotions and you have to bend the rules (pretty bad) to meet these targets, the entire evaluation and promotion system becomes a joke.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#320

Post by throwaway9133 »

Another way to look at it is that modern capitalist societies require you to have a job to participate in said society and the benefits it incurs. It's a work to live system. And these companies care only about profits, not people, and they will fire anyone at the drop of a hat if it means dividends for investors or protecting executive bonuses. There is absolutely no benefit to loyalty nor honesty because the companies themselves do not have these virtues.

There's also the fact that despite efforts in recent years to control biases in the hiring process and promotions; it still creeps in. The odds are stacked against people from minority demographics from getting work at all let alone a decent paying job. It often doesn't matter how well they do or whether they play by the rules.

It seems a bit cynical if you believe the world should be mostly meritocratic but unfortunately it's not.

In some ways cheating is the morally correct course of action.

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