My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#261

Post by nosianu » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #215

scarface74 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because Americans never cheat to get ahead and we are all morally superior…

Having grown up in America and moved to Czechia for college I have to say that I was absolutely shocked by the level of cheating both by Czechs as well as those from "farther east" like Ukraine and Russia. Just brazen obvious sheeting like taking notes into exams and hiding them. Cooperating during exams. Even collaboration to distract the teacher during exams. When I was at college in the US getting caught cheating…

This contradicts what we read here about cheating being very often tolerated in higher education institutions in the US, because money.

Usually I try including at least a few links, but in this case I think anybody who has read these threads right here on HN should remember those numerous posts and discussions? I remember comments from educators who wanted to do something but the higher-ups prevented it, for example, or reversed the decision. Unfortunately I don't know what to search for to find these kinds of comments again.

EDIT: Found one very quickly after just a little cross-reading of one cheating related thread, the reply to this linked comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32533086

Quote:

> The amount of cheating was insane. He started academic dishonesty proceedings against many of the students but the department pressured him to "work it out."

It's not just the students either: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2019/06/21/americas-l...

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#262

Post by spamizbad » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

I would say the pro-cheating attitude is pretty widespread among young adults tracking into white collar careers, and computer science is no different. It usually starts in school - and these interview quizzes track this behavior pretty closely. Even without the cheating, you can pass an interview "honestly" by putting in the time to cram for it. That does not justify cheating in any way, though.

The fact that people can just cheat in these interviews and not get PIP'd within 6 months, at an organization notorious for PIPing its under-performers, does illustrate how bad the screening process it. Not only do they need to shift back to in-person interviews, they also need to fix their process to actually test skills.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#263

Post by scaramanga » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #183

n4r9 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is large enough to maintain market dominance via strategies other than technical excellence.

So then why hire technically excellent people? They might expect excellent salaries or excellent working conditions.

That's like asking why do kings buy wonderful artworks when they could save their gold and hang mediocre artworks on their wall?

Either it's because they have very refined tastes and value aesthetics over money, or...

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#264

Post by yamtaddle » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

hnthrway wrote: post #196

runlaszlorun wrote: post #69

I’m going to go out on a limb here and be “that guy”. But in my experience, there’s a big difference between perspectives on cheating in the US vs perspectives in… let’s just say broadly… “some other nations”. I say this as an American who has lived overseas much of my life and, lest you think I’m just a flag waving parrot for the US, prob prefer living overseas and am more than willing to criticize the heck out of t…

No, I've had acquaintances who believed cheating made them smarter than non-cheaters

Savvier or more cunning—yeah, probably so.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#265

Post by awesomeMilou » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

hgsgm wrote: post #92

praxulus wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is spitballing a presentation cheating? It's the equivalent of taking a test without studying, not presenting somebody else's work as your own.

It's a broken system where effort and performance isn't acknowledged and rewarded and the whole purpose of being there is undermined. At some point the whole enterprise is destructive and should be shut down.

When has "having been there" ever been a measure for reward? In college no one gave a shit if you came to lectures, all that mattered was the exam at the end of the semester. If you learn better with books: great!

I'm suprised that so many companies are unable to measure the performance of their employees in an effective manner. This entire discussion comes down to whether management actually wants to own the product and subsequently the product development lifecycle and is then also willing to investigate potential friction, or, as is much more often the case, doesn't really care and just wants to be told what they want to hear.

You prioritize a metric (keep management happy) over actualy results. If I can improve that metric by improvising, how am I a cheater?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#266

Post by GavinMcG » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #202

some cheaters are actually good at what they cheat about and simply cheat to obtain additional advantage. the post seems pretty whiny to me. morally he's right but we happen to live in a "doggy-dog" world and moral codes are promoted by successful cheaters to keep the plebs under control. I don't want to justify cheating but it's game theoretic conclusion that you either play the game by the by the rules and most lik…

The term is "dog-eat-dog" by the way.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#267

Post by bombcar » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:47 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #222

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

I read these comments not as a defense of cheating, but as resignation that "This is just how the world is." Your view is right at home in a Star Trek The Next Generation world where everyone's needs are met and people act ethically, with good intentions and are in return treated fairly. A civilized, meritocratic world that doesn't exist. Like it or not, we live in a zero-sum dog-eat-dog world that pits neighbors aga…

Some of that may be true, but the world is not zero-sum, definitely not zero-sum at all levels.

If you go buy some wood and build a piece of furniture, you have created something of value that is more than what it was before, and the elite have nothing to say or benefit from it.

And if buying is a bridge too far, you can go into the woods, cut down a tree, and drag it home and fashion it into something.

Yes, entropy means everything will eventually slump into the heat-death of the universe, but here and now we can fight entropy and make our world, even if just the local world of where we live, a bit better.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#268

Post by ajcp » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:47 PM UTC

dariusj18 wrote: post #107

heelix wrote: post #27

I've done a lot of screening interviews and cheating does happen. Some of my favorites: * developer attempts to pass something off as video lag, as he attempts to lip sync someone else's answer. * developer had printed all the 'common' answers on the wall behind his computer, and would look up to them for reference as we were talking. Then the tape came off and covered him in a a paper stack overflow. * the glorious…

I let any of my interviewees know that it is ok to use google, I just want to know what they searched for. I'm not running a trivia contest, so if they forgot the name of something or need a little refresh, that's fine.

I expect my interviewees to use Google and am disappointed if they don't. It's more important to me that they know how to find the right answer than it is that they just know it off the top of their head. 90% of their time is going to be spent figuring out how to solve all the known-unknowns they're going to come across.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#269

Post by scaramanga » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:47 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #68

n4r9 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't there an alternative interpretation, that the internal evaluation process is just as broken as the hiring process?

There is another, even more cynical, interpretation. They may have been discovered to be incompetent, and promoted into a role where they can do less damage.

And an interpretation more cynical than that:

The manager who hired them can either a) fire them, admitting they made a mistake, and taking a headcount and budget reduction; or b) promote them, congratulating themselves for the successful hire and increasing the budget.

Nobody gets promoted to stop doing damage, they get fired. Contrary to popular belief, it's not difficult to fire people, less so incompetent people.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#270

Post by Invictus0 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 2:47 PM UTC

emddudley wrote: post #122

twistedcheeslet wrote: post #12

Your friends did whatever was needed to pass the interview. You did not. How is it surprising that they're the ones getting raises? Clearly they're willing to risk more than you are for the reward. Only getting caught cheating guarantees loss. Playing fair does not guarantee winning.

What a corrupt way to view the world.

Wait till you see how the business people you're working for see the world!