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The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

wired.co.uk

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Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#61

Post by pyre »

cynicalkane wrote: post #48
freehunter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I pirate a lot of stuff, and almost all of it I couldn't possibly have legally acquired. If pirating didn't exist, I would have never listened to weird al's songs, nor watched movies banned in my country for political reasons. This still isn't a good argument. Justifying the means by which you acquired content still doesn't make it morally right or legal. "But I can't get it without piracy!" still doesn't give you a…

I hate that this is downvoted. Content owners have the right to dictate, within the bounds of law, how their content is to be used. The only reason this is controversial is because music is usually owned and distributed by the Bad Guys. If this was a case about illegally using GPLed software, for example, there wouldn't even need to be a discussion.

  > Content owners have the right to dictate, within
  > the bounds of law
So if he lives somewhere that didn't sign the Berne Convention, then it's ok, right? Or is that where we drop the premise of the 'good == legal' argument and start trying to debate the morality of it?

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#62

Post by pyre »

eurleif wrote: post #43
kbolino wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's vacuous reasoning. I know the situations are different; I'm asking why one is ethically intolerable and the other is ethically acceptable to the point of making civil disobedience unethical (in freehunter's opinion, anyway). To put it another way, what about that difference justifies the discrimination?

IP rights to the same work in different countries are sold separately, and can end up being owned by different companies. Also, different countries have different economies, which means it makes sense to manage distribution in separate countries separately.

I thought that globalization and the 'tearing down' of national borders was a good thing? Doesn't this go against the idea that multi-national corporations can divide up the global into separate regions (e.g. dvd region codes)?

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#63

Post by pyre »

majani wrote: post #7
codex wrote: post #3

It is often claimed that piracy is the entertainment industry's own fault--that they need to evolve to embrace digital media, and because they haven't, people are forced to turn to piracy. There may be a bit of truth to that argument, but if you look at the Apple App Store, you'll find a damning rebuttal. The App Store has embraced digital distribution. Purchasing and downloading apps could not be easier. It's certai…

I've found that in the recent piracy debates, there has been a high level of dishonesty, where people don't want to admit that the absolute number one reason people resort to piracy is because that shit is free. I'd like to challenge the founders of TPB to charge for their superior distribution system and report the traffic numbers before and after.

  > I'd like to challenge the founders of TPB to
  > charge for their superior distribution system
1) The logistics wouldn't be there. Not necessarily because people won't pay, but because paying is a barrier to entry. Even paying a penny would filter out a number of users. Would you really believe that the reason those people wouldn't pay a penny is because they are cheap? Or is it more likely that the paywall is a barrier that they are too lazy to overcome?

2) Charging out-right for the service vs. making money on advertisements would also be a shift in their image. This may cause a number of people to jump ship out of principle. I.e. a 'hipster filter' if you will ("they're too big and corporate now", "they've sold out", etc).

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#64

Post by pyre »

joeyespo wrote: post #29
codex wrote: post #3

It is often claimed that piracy is the entertainment industry's own fault--that they need to evolve to embrace digital media, and because they haven't, people are forced to turn to piracy. There may be a bit of truth to that argument, but if you look at the Apple App Store, you'll find a damning rebuttal. The App Store has embraced digital distribution. Purchasing and downloading apps could not be easier. It's certai…

I don't think it's that simple. Time and reliability are strong factors as well. If the paid service saves you time, then yeah, it'll get lots of use. What's $2 compared the time you might spend to track it down elsewhere? Let alone a clean version of it. Piracy just isn't that reliable over a long period of time. Your sources could be shut down at any moment, or even lead to unintended consequences if you're using s…

  > Boredom is a reason people pirate that's
  > probably not really worth solving.
There's also hoarding urges. If everything is free, it's possible to have a huge comprehensive collection of films, tv, etc. More than one could ever actually watch.

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#65

Post by pyre »

paulhauggis wrote: post #19
CodeMage wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen? Voting with your wallet works when you can stop paying one company and go to its competitor. But if they all get together and decide that you have to do it their way or you're screwed, then guess what's going to happen? The majority will find the bes…

"Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen?" Whenever we have discussions about companies violating the GNU and people say "just don't use GNU software", I say the same thing. But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the G…

  > But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine
  > with pirating are against essentially the same thing
  > with the GNU license.
Do you have actual concrete example of this? Or are you just attributing opinions to 'HN' as some sort of singular entity?

"The funny thing is" that I see claims like this all the time from both sides of the fence. "HN is just a bunch of Google apologists!" "HN is just a bunch of Google-haters!" etc...

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#66

Post by pyre »

gareim wrote: post #52
CodeMage wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need music or movies to live. If they all decide to do it, just stop buying all together. Correction: you don't need them to survive . They are, however, a part of everyone's lives nowadays. We all grew up listening to music and watching movies. It would require tremendous external pressure (such as war or plague) to change that. Maslow's Pyramid and all that jazz. Music is so cheap. All of the original dem…

Amazon answered your demands already. You can buy music via a browser, there's a large selection, it's DRM-free, you can stream or download as many times as you'd like, and you can play it while offline. Amazon also offers a pretty fair price. $0.99 isn't a lot (and it's even cheaper per song if you buy the album). If $0.99 is too much, then I suggest the person go get a better job rather than pirating songs and feel…

... and Amazon offers this service in all countries around the world?

... and I don't need to download a 'special' piece of software to download an entire album at once (vs. requiring me to click on each individual track and download it separately)?

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#67

Post by pyre »

res0nat0r wrote: post #59
efnx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like to see some proof that piracy is a huge problem. Files being available and free for download on the 'black market' does not mean that people who would pirate said files would otherwise pay for those files. It would be nice if someone did a scientific study...

Does it matter if it is a problem or not, really? As long as it is against the law, well then it can be considered a problem. Until the law is changed that the music you demand should be free to everyone, anywhere, anytime, it is still a 'problem'. So you shouldn't be upset when websites that are profiting off of activities which are illegal get shutdown.

I think the 'problem' here is that you are equating legality with morality. Should I be concerned about the 'problem' of medical marijuana clinics (e.g. in California) profiting off of a Federally illegal substance?

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#68

Post by replax »

dekz wrote: post #53
cynicalkane wrote: post #49

A while ago I realized something about piracy that disturbed me, and the more I think about it, the more disturbed I get. Lots of money now days is going into things like webapps, app stores, Steam, DRM-encumbered streaming, enterprise software, other categories of stuff that can't reasonably be stolen. But this presents an encumbrance over information for which society would be better off if it were free in the info…

Are trying to imply that deep down everyone inherently would choose theft over remuneration? Or that we all would prefer a world where everything is free? Piracy exists sorely due to bad business models, where it is distribution of expected value of a product; Teens aren't going to pay $300 for Microsoft Office to use for 3 hours the night before a paper is due, I don't want to have DRM on my music. If your opinion w…

I have to disagree, piracy does not only exist due to bad business models. Back in the day, it was generally more convenient to buy a tape instead of copying it from a mate. While convenience/"bad" business models is a big part of the reason for piracy it is by no means the sole reason for it. E.g. people love collecting stuff, but could not rationalise to pay for it. There are people with multiple TB's of music/films/books/pictures that they never consumed, just because collecting it is their only interest.

Also, the Microsoft office Student example is obviously flawed. Office costs $300, if the student cannot/does not want to pay, he CANNOT USE it. There is absolutely NO business flaw on Microsoft's side there, except that their pricing might be a little to high for students. Maybe students are not their target group then. (I only use MS Office in this example because it is a response, students however can of course use the >FREE< MS Office (with ads) for their 3h-late-night-project).

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#69

Post by majani »

pyre wrote: post #63
majani wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that in the recent piracy debates, there has been a high level of dishonesty, where people don't want to admit that the absolute number one reason people resort to piracy is because that shit is free. I'd like to challenge the founders of TPB to charge for their superior distribution system and report the traffic numbers before and after.

> I'd like to challenge the founders of TPB to > charge for their superior distribution system 1) The logistics wouldn't be there. Not necessarily because people won't pay, but because paying is a barrier to entry. Even paying a penny would filter out a number of users. Would you really believe that the reason those people wouldn't pay a penny is because they are cheap? Or is it more likely that the paywall is a barr…

Your argument beats around the bush. You and I both know that if TPB were to charge, their traffic would drop by several orders of magnitude. This is not because of logistics, not because of image, not because of inefficient distribution and not because of DRM. The simple reason for the huge drop off would be that most pirates want that sh't free. Why oh why do people insist on sugar coating this blatant reality?

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#70

Post by res0nat0r »

pyre wrote: post #67
res0nat0r wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter if it is a problem or not, really? As long as it is against the law, well then it can be considered a problem. Until the law is changed that the music you demand should be free to everyone, anywhere, anytime, it is still a 'problem'. So you shouldn't be upset when websites that are profiting off of activities which are illegal get shutdown.

I think the 'problem' here is that you are equating legality with morality. Should I be concerned about the 'problem' of medical marijuana clinics (e.g. in California) profiting off of a Federally illegal substance?

I'm not equating this with morality whatsoever. I do find it quite humorous that somehow after the creation of easily distributable music due to the Fraunhofer Institue and high speed bandwith, that somehow music, movies, and television and the demand that they be accessable for free, or instantly available anywhere at any price you choose has become a 'moral' issue.

Note the movie industry is doing perfectly fine with piracy in its current state, I don't debate that. Just look at the yearly numbers: http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/ not too bad IMO.

So, seeing as how they are doing just fine in the face of all this piracy, why shouldn't they try and do as much as they can to crack down on the money they think they are losing? They are doing just fine, which means there is an obvious demand for their product, so they should be trying to stop people who are eating into their profit margin, what is wrong with that? Sure you might not agree and believe that 'the man' is evil and stealing 99 cents out of every dollar that goes to your beloved band which no one has ever heard of, but it is still their right to protect their investment. It isn't an inherent right put forth in the Constitution that states you should be entertained for free, or at whatever price you choose.

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