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The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

wired.co.uk

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Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#11

Post by paulhauggis »

bediger wrote: post #8
jobu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a blog post linked here on Hacker News that talked about it from the perspective of an iOS game developer. Unfortunately I can't seem to find it right now, but the synopsis was the overwhelming majority of their users had not paid for the game (in iTunes). While this is purely anecdotal, one could argue it's probably representative of the market. For apps and music, I think Apple does a good job of making t…

"There will always be people with more time than money" - doesn't that mean "so-called pirates will always exist"? If that's the case, why should the rest of us pay money for enforcement actions (in the form of taxes) and why should the rest of us allow a few Giant Immoral Corporations to distort our society and culture? Shouldn't our elected representatives patiently explain the economics to the crybaby corporations…

It's pretty easy: stop buying DRM/protected products (and stop pirating them too). If there was no piracy and you just stopped buying, big companies would lower the price/do something different. But, now that they don't really know why, they will continue to add more protections.

But, most people don't have that kind of commitment or discipline and the rest are just part of the movement because they want free stuff.

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#13

Post by efnx »

paulhauggis wrote: post #10
efnx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like to see some proof that piracy is a huge problem. Files being available and free for download on the 'black market' does not mean that people who would pirate said files would otherwise pay for those files. It would be nice if someone did a scientific study...

You really need scientific study? Just look at Napster. When something is easily available for free, the masses will choose it over paying for the exact same thing. Wouldn't you?

Yes, I do need a scientific study. When Napster came out my friends and I finally had access to hard-to-find singles and b-sides that were not available anywhere else. We also still bought tons of records. I'm looking at Napster now - it feels a lot like Pandora and Spotify. I can't take an anecdotal story from a company ('the story of Napster') and treat that as hard evidence in a fact-based argument, sorry.

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#14

Post by bediger »

paulhauggis wrote: post #11
bediger wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There will always be people with more time than money" - doesn't that mean "so-called pirates will always exist"? If that's the case, why should the rest of us pay money for enforcement actions (in the form of taxes) and why should the rest of us allow a few Giant Immoral Corporations to distort our society and culture? Shouldn't our elected representatives patiently explain the economics to the crybaby corporations…

It's pretty easy: stop buying DRM/protected products (and stop pirating them too). If there was no piracy and you just stopped buying, big companies would lower the price/do something different. But, now that they don't really know why, they will continue to add more protections. But, most people don't have that kind of commitment or discipline and the rest are just part of the movement because they want free stuff.

If there's a legal (or standards-organization) mandate for DRM (and there have been legislative pushes for such in the past: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Broadband_and_Digital_... , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Protection_for_Recordab... to note just two such efforts) then nothing I can do will move the market.

But beyond all that, the whole "Piracy!" excuse doesn't take into account whether the proposed problem actually merits a solution, whether the proposed solution actually cures the problem, and whether the proposed solution causes more problems than it cures. "But, but, Piracy!" is just a way to whip up a confusing semantic fog around an issue, demonize a set of viewpoints, and use that demonization to pursue some kind of agenda that hardly anyone would go along with without the associated confusing and witchhunts. You're doing it yourself, subtly, by implying that I habitually "pirate" stuff, when nothing could be farther from the truth. Although I'm not a church-goer any more, I'm a citizen, and a taxpayer. I don't cuss, I obey the Law of the Sea, Canon Law, and the Laws of Thermodynamics. I do not advocate the violent overthrow of the government, and I have no conflicts of interest.

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#15

Post by vibrunazo »

codex wrote: post #3

It is often claimed that piracy is the entertainment industry's own fault--that they need to evolve to embrace digital media, and because they haven't, people are forced to turn to piracy. There may be a bit of truth to that argument, but if you look at the Apple App Store, you'll find a damning rebuttal. The App Store has embraced digital distribution. Purchasing and downloading apps could not be easier. It's certai…

  >Purchasing and downloading apps could not be easier.
I wouldn't be so fast here. The app store limits availability by country. For example, you cannot legally buy games here in Brazil on the app store [1]. Which is a huge market. I pirate a lot of stuff, and almost all of it I couldn't possibly have legally acquired. If pirating didn't exist, I would have never listened to Weird Al Yankovic's songs (I spent months with money in my pocket going from store to store looking to buy his cds when I was young), nor watched movies banned in my country for political reasons.

There is also the pay wall barrier. Which is also often derived from a location problem. You may have many easy payment options in the USA, but we might not have it as easy here. (There are many startups working on decreasing this barrier, but so far it's still big)

Also, your argument is subjective. You cannot make an objective case for "how much potential damage" piracy is making. You cannot know how many pirates would have bought if piracy didn't exist, maybe some wouldn't have bought anyway because of the paywall or location bans.

But what you do can prove objectively is that you can make money from digital content without trying to stop piracy. Which is the point that Peter Sunde is making here. Which was also the same point Steve Blank made a while ago [2].

So you cannot simply say "piracy is a huge problem" and just cite that link saying that some pirates exist. Your argument cannot be demonstrated objectively, while the Peter's argument can, and has.

[1] http://itunes.apple.com/br/genre/ios-games/id6014?mt=8

[1] (in portuguese) http://macmagazine.com.br/2011/03/30/ausencia-de-jogos-na-ap...

[2] http://steveblank.com/2012/01/04/why-the-movie-industry-cant...

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#16

Post by CodeMage »

paulhauggis wrote: post #11
bediger wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There will always be people with more time than money" - doesn't that mean "so-called pirates will always exist"? If that's the case, why should the rest of us pay money for enforcement actions (in the form of taxes) and why should the rest of us allow a few Giant Immoral Corporations to distort our society and culture? Shouldn't our elected representatives patiently explain the economics to the crybaby corporations…

It's pretty easy: stop buying DRM/protected products (and stop pirating them too). If there was no piracy and you just stopped buying, big companies would lower the price/do something different. But, now that they don't really know why, they will continue to add more protections. But, most people don't have that kind of commitment or discipline and the rest are just part of the movement because they want free stuff.

Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen?

Voting with your wallet works when you can stop paying one company and go to its competitor. But if they all get together and decide that you have to do it their way or you're screwed, then guess what's going to happen? The majority will find the best way to procure what they need under the circumstances and the minority will fight to change the situation. It just happens that it in this particular situation the best way to procure what people need is not by choosing the least evil of the providers, but you have a choice to copy stuff for free, instead.

Let's make things clear: this doesn't make it legal to pirate stuff. On the other hand, "legal", "correct", "practical" and "optimal" are never the same thing. Just as no amount of arguing will change the fact that piracy is (still) illegal, no amount of arguing will change the fact that the industry needs to evolve.

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#17

Post by supercanuck »

paulhauggis wrote: post #12

I can't really get behind someone that: 1) makes money on advertising on top of other people's copyrighted material 2) starts a service for donating money and then charges a 10% transaction fee. Even Paypal isn't that bad.

Revolutions aren't cheap!

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#18

Post by paulhauggis »

supercanuck wrote: post #17
paulhauggis wrote: post #12

I can't really get behind someone that: 1) makes money on advertising on top of other people's copyrighted material 2) starts a service for donating money and then charges a 10% transaction fee. Even Paypal isn't that bad.

Revolutions aren't cheap!

yeah, well, neither are their paychecks.

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#19

Post by paulhauggis »

CodeMage wrote: post #16
paulhauggis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty easy: stop buying DRM/protected products (and stop pirating them too). If there was no piracy and you just stopped buying, big companies would lower the price/do something different. But, now that they don't really know why, they will continue to add more protections. But, most people don't have that kind of commitment or discipline and the rest are just part of the movement because they want free stuff.

Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen? Voting with your wallet works when you can stop paying one company and go to its competitor. But if they all get together and decide that you have to do it their way or you're screwed, then guess what's going to happen? The majority will find the bes…

"Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen?"

Whenever we have discussions about companies violating the GNU and people say "just don't use GNU software", I say the same thing. But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the GNU license. What a world we live in. I'm going to keep bringing up these points until they stick.

"Voting with your wallet works when you can stop paying one company and go to its competitor. But if they all get together and decide that you have to do it their way or you're screwed,"

You don't need music or movies to live. If they all decide to do it, just stop buying all together.

This isn't new. I saw this same "movement" 10 years ago with Napster and it's nothing more than an excuse to get movies, music, and software for free.

Music is so cheap. All of the original demands 10 years ago have been met. Guess what? piracy is worse than ever. It reminds me why you never negotiate with terrorists.

Re: The Pirate Bay's Peter Sunde: It's evolution, stupid

#20

Post by freehunter »

vibrunazo wrote: post #15
codex wrote: post #3

It is often claimed that piracy is the entertainment industry's own fault--that they need to evolve to embrace digital media, and because they haven't, people are forced to turn to piracy. There may be a bit of truth to that argument, but if you look at the Apple App Store, you'll find a damning rebuttal. The App Store has embraced digital distribution. Purchasing and downloading apps could not be easier. It's certai…

>Purchasing and downloading apps could not be easier. I wouldn't be so fast here. The app store limits availability by country. For example, you cannot legally buy games here in Brazil on the app store [1]. Which is a huge market. I pirate a lot of stuff, and almost all of it I couldn't possibly have legally acquired. If pirating didn't exist, I would have never listened to Weird Al Yankovic's songs (I spent months w…

>I pirate a lot of stuff, and almost all of it I couldn't possibly have legally acquired. If pirating didn't exist, I would have never listened to weird al's songs, nor watched movies banned in my country for political reasons.

This still isn't a good argument. Justifying the means by which you acquired content still doesn't make it morally right or legal. "But I can't get it without piracy!" still doesn't give you any right to consume the product. Buying vs pirating... there's a third option. Abstinence. If you can't get Weird Al's media legally, you can always just not get it at all.

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