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Reddit takes a new direction

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Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#221

Post by sophacles »

Steko wrote: post #211
pyre wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point people are making is that once we start making judgement calls like this there will be more and more calls from the community to make more judgement calls to increase the net and shutdown other types of sub-reddits that they disagree with. Much in the same way that once we give the government a censorship filter on the Internet to 'stop child pornography,' they've got their foot in the door to censor other…

"The point people are making is that once we start making judgement calls like this" You act like there's a real choice here. The other choice was Reddit goes out of business. Reddit made the obvious choice. "there will be more and more calls from the community to make more judgement calls to increase the net and shutdown other types of sub-reddits that they disagree with." Welcome to the real world. Oh you let kids…

Welcome to the real world. Oh you let kids in your site? Kids have parents. Parents demand standards for places their kids go. Want to startup a reddit clone with no standards? Have at it! Let us know how it works out for you.

You know, perhaps it's ok for us to suggest the parents do the parenting, and let us grown ups hang out at the reddit?

Oh wait, right its actually just a strawman argument so you can be the morality police for the world. Sorry for the confusion.

It's also the case that once you set up an infrastructure to prosecute murderers it becomes easier for the government to move from arresting people for murder to hey let's just arrest some people we don't like for reason XYZ. That's not a legitimate argument for not having an infrastructure to prosecute murderers though.

It is however a fantastic reason to talk about the potential consequences of that infrastructure, and perhaps to arrange for safeguards against the unwanted scenarios. This is what some of us are trying to do here while you are clamoring to (extending the metaphor) put everyone in jail who may one day murder someone.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#222

Post by sophacles »

ugh wrote: post #127
weavejester wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a third-party observer, I initially had the same reaction as sophacles, in that your comment appeared, at first, to be a strongly-worded straw-man argument. However, now that I re-read it I can see your point, but your use of profanity and the general lack of civility in your comment obscured your argument. The tone of your comment was more like an accusation than a reasoned response, even if the content (minus th…

It was supposed to be an accusation. Some things deserve accusations. And profanities. Sigh. I’m quite disillusioned about HN, actually. Not that it should surprise me, but damn. People here say the exact same things as on Reddit. If you squint a bit the reactions are the same. That doesn’t make me happy. I do recognize that I can’t do many constructive things here (short of screaming at people) so I’m going to excus…

Since you are unhappy here, do us all a favor and just stop coming to the site. The same posts are linked and discussed many other places on the web, where you can have discussion with people who either agree with you, or don't mind you overreacting to disagreements.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#223

Post by ceol »

Jun8 wrote: post #118

I can't believe the narrow-minded approach a lot of comments here suggest. Most of the people seem to subscribe to the argument, which in simplified form says, (1) the subreddits were full of child pornography (2) the people who frequent these were "pedos" and therefore (3) it's a good thing that these got axed. The terms CP and pedophilia are being thrown around without much thinking, the same way the general public…

>1) Some of these subreddits may have contained CP, the illegal ones were being actively removed by admins.

CP was posted in the same subreddits. The admins were tired of spending their time determining if reported images were illegal or not.

>2) Calling pictures of 16-year-olds in bikinis CP is not very useful and dilutes the term.

A 16 year old in their swimsuit at the beach isn't CP. A 16 year old posed in their swimsuit like a porn star in a bedroom is CP. The latter is what was posted in these subreddits.

This isn't an issue with unfair application of sex offender laws or the vilification of accused sex offenders. This is Something Awful forum members forcing reddit admins to finally remove at best objectionable content, at worst illegal material.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#224

Post by ceol »

Karunamon wrote: post #203
tptacek wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that my wording isn't persuasive. It is, on the other hand, clear, which is my priority on this thread. Again, to be clear: I am repelled by any argument that suggests that it is unfortunate that Reddit is cracking down on child pornography. I couldn't be less interested in discussing Gaiman's take on the subject. What drew me into the thread was a comment about NNTP. NNTP is a sore point with me; the repurpo…

>it is unfortunate that Reddit is cracking down on child pornography. And that's where a great many people have gotten confused. Child porn was already against the rules and already reported to authorities and the perpetrators banned. That hasn't changed. What has changed were the subreddits like /r/jailbait - where there was absolutely nothing illegal going on. Creepy and skeevy perhaps, but not illegal. Let me repe…

>Comparing the content of /r/jailbait to child porn is akin to comparing the sights of an average day at the beach to the set of a hardcore porno shoot. It's completely bogus.

This isn't about /r/jailbait. This is about the other subreddits which much worse content e.g. /r/preteen_girls and /r/asianbait.

The content posted to these subreddits was, for the most part, child pornography. The rest was absolutely child erotica. To compare what was posted there to children at the beach is a gross misrepresentation.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#225

Post by pyre »

Steko wrote: post #211
pyre wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point people are making is that once we start making judgement calls like this there will be more and more calls from the community to make more judgement calls to increase the net and shutdown other types of sub-reddits that they disagree with. Much in the same way that once we give the government a censorship filter on the Internet to 'stop child pornography,' they've got their foot in the door to censor other…

"The point people are making is that once we start making judgement calls like this" You act like there's a real choice here. The other choice was Reddit goes out of business. Reddit made the obvious choice. "there will be more and more calls from the community to make more judgement calls to increase the net and shutdown other types of sub-reddits that they disagree with." Welcome to the real world. Oh you let kids…

My post can be summarized by the last part:

  let's not act like this doesn't come with
  possible consequences.
Do you disagree with this? Nothing that you've said in your post even touches on this. All you've done is wave your hands around in the air and make a bunch of emotional appeals, picking very specific parts of my post while steering clear of everything else.

In general, I group this in with 'troll behavior,' but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that this is a very emotional topic for you (i.e. you see this as a black-and-white issue).

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#226

Post by Steko »

sophacles wrote: post #221
Steko wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The point people are making is that once we start making judgement calls like this" You act like there's a real choice here. The other choice was Reddit goes out of business. Reddit made the obvious choice. "there will be more and more calls from the community to make more judgement calls to increase the net and shutdown other types of sub-reddits that they disagree with." Welcome to the real world. Oh you let kids…

Welcome to the real world. Oh you let kids in your site? Kids have parents. Parents demand standards for places their kids go. Want to startup a reddit clone with no standards? Have at it! Let us know how it works out for you. You know, perhaps it's ok for us to suggest the parents do the parenting, and let us grown ups hang out at the reddit? Oh wait, right its actually just a strawman argument so you can be the mor…

"so you can be the morality police for the world. Sorry for the confusion."

If your post were a New Yorker cartoon I'd have the perfect caption for it. I'm not the morality police, I'm pointing out that morality exists and reddit, as a community was not above that. I'm dreadfully sorry if you're only now finding out that community morality exists and that there are commercial consequences for for-profit private businesses who ignore that in the real world.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum reddit is easily cloneable. If you think all the world needs is a place where the timeless insights of the people that brought us /r/jailbait, and "how to rape your daughter" threads can shine without the "morality police" ever being called on the party have at it.

"This is what some of us are trying to do here while you are clamoring to (extending the metaphor) put everyone in jail who may one day murder someone."

Bullshit. Let me clear up this analogy. I'm saying we have a rule against murder and it's a good rule. You're saying it's a dangerous rule that will lead us down the road to serfdom.

We can debate whether the rule is good (not all rules are as clear cut as the one we have for murder). I don't think you will win on those merits though re: this reddit policy.

There's a rule at most community pools that you don't crap or piss in the pool. Somehow this hasn't led to widescale pool tyranny, it's pretty much just a rule not to piss in the pool. Just because there's a slope doesn't mean anyone is going to slip down it.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#227

Post by Karunamon »

ceol wrote: post #224
Karunamon wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it is unfortunate that Reddit is cracking down on child pornography. And that's where a great many people have gotten confused. Child porn was already against the rules and already reported to authorities and the perpetrators banned. That hasn't changed. What has changed were the subreddits like /r/jailbait - where there was absolutely nothing illegal going on. Creepy and skeevy perhaps, but not illegal. Let me repe…

>Comparing the content of /r/jailbait to child porn is akin to comparing the sights of an average day at the beach to the set of a hardcore porno shoot. It's completely bogus. This isn't about /r/jailbait. This is about the other subreddits which much worse content e.g. /r/preteen_girls and /r/asianbait. The content posted to these subreddits was, for the most part, child pornography. The rest was absolutely child er…

>The content posted to these subreddits was, for the most part, child pornography.

Allow me to be blunt: Bullshit.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#228

Post by [deleted] »

sophacles wrote: post #72
jasonkester wrote: post #63

People tend to think of online communities as democracies where the freedoms they're accustomed to from their normal lives apply. So when a post gets deleted by a moderator, people tend to think of it as a freedom of speech issue. There's a whole constitution out there specifically defending anybody's right to create a pro-Nazi subreddit, and to otherwise post anything they please on the site so long as it's not ille…

* And I think we can all say the result is a lot more pleasant than a less tended place such as Reddit or 4chan.* I am honestly not sure we can say that at all. I thoroughly enjoy both hn and reddit, for completely different reasons . Sure, from a strictly legal standpoint, it isn't censorship or a constitutional issue, but at the same time, the "anything goes" attitude in places like 4chan and reddit allow for a lot…

[deleted]

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#229

Post by ceol »

Karunamon wrote: post #227
ceol wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Comparing the content of /r/jailbait to child porn is akin to comparing the sights of an average day at the beach to the set of a hardcore porno shoot. It's completely bogus. This isn't about /r/jailbait. This is about the other subreddits which much worse content e.g. /r/preteen_girls and /r/asianbait. The content posted to these subreddits was, for the most part, child pornography. The rest was absolutely child er…

>The content posted to these subreddits was, for the most part, child pornography. Allow me to be blunt: Bullshit.

You never actually looked at any of the subreddits removed, did you?

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#230

Post by mattgreenrocks »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #194
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But reddit specifically said create your own subreddit and post what you want (as long as it is not spam). That is why this is such a big issue. A big issue? They updated the minimal set of rules the site runs by. If users don't like it, they can go elsewhere. There's no issue here, just Redditors doing what they do best: creating a tempest in a teapot.

There's no issue here, just HNers doing what they do best, epitomizing the actions of a few or single person to enable them to look down their nose at the inferior "reddit". The reaction at reddit has been OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of this ban, the last four days has been top post after top post asking for it to be banned. Every tiny thing a single redditor does is grounds for dismissal and condemnation of the entire s…

FWIW, HN isn't all that great either.

I used to really like Reddit. But I loathed the fact that each subreddit sank into a lowest common denominator appeal as it grew: memes, linkbait-y headlines, groupthink. To be fair, these are problems with groups of people in general: they get dumber and dumber as they get bigger. But the total hands-off nature of Reddit meant that this sort of intellectual race to the bottom was not only inevitable, it was expected and allowed to happen, even if a vocal minority made their points coherently. They were drowned out by populist voices who are quick to decree that the voice of Everyone is worthwhile because, well, damn it, it's Everyone.

And that's bullshit. I prefer a site where people at least pretend to discuss things instead of rushing to post "tl;dr" anytime someone writes a paragraph of text.

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